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Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters, Discussion Post 31
And in this post:
-![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!
-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, andselenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!
-mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War
(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
-
luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and
selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!-
mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
Re: The Backstory for the '45
So let me see if I've got this straight: James III was James II's kid and Bonnie Prince Charlie was James III's kid, right?
Yes, exactly! Sorry if that wasn't clear.
James III was in the 1708 attempt, who was in the 1715/1719/1744 rebellions/attempts?
Well, the '15 was a spontaneous thing and James III came as fast as he could? But had to leave soon again when the rising failed. I think BPC was hanging around in France pestering everyone in '44, and probably intended to go, if it happened.
Why did BPC decide to go in 1745 even though it seems the odds were against it? Was it related to the aborted 1744 attempt? (Although that seems like a negative inducement if anything, since you say France wasn't interested in backing him.)
Well, France had intended to back the '44 attempt, so the odds probably didn't seem that bad to him? I think he figured that if he went on his own (and remember he had intended to come with those troops that were lost) and had some initial successes, then France would back him when that happened. Which they kind of did, but not enough. Also, this was his goal in life and he had spent his life preparing for it! He'd had a tutor to teach him Scots and a bit of Gaelic (and English, of course), he'd made sure to climb around in the Italian mountains so he was in good physical shape, etc. He was just champing at the bit. Also, there was communication between the Stuarts in Rome and Jacobites in Britain, so he definitely had contacts and knew where to turn when he got to Scotland.
Re: The Backstory for the '45
Re: The Backstory for the '45
Re: The Backstory for the '45
Re: The Backstory for the '45
[Jamie] had been born a leader, then bent and shaped further to fit such a destiny. But what of a man who had not been born to the role he was required to fill? ...[Charles Stuart] for [one].
For the first time in ten years, from this strange distance, he could find it in himself to forgive that feeble man who had once been his friend. Having so often paid the price exacted by his own gift, he could at last see the more terrible doom of having been born a king, without the gift of kingship.
Re: The Backstory for the '45
Yep. BPC was all, "Gimme an army, where's my army, come on!"
He was just champing at the bit.
This. He was a twenty-something year-old young male who'd been raised his entire life in the belief that his destiny was to be king, because Divine Right of Kings. Becoming king was his mission and his religion. Obviously, everything was going to work out in his favor! Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!
What he didn't have was a great ability to cope with setbacks. When things didn't go the way he wanted, he got frustrated and started insisting that the universe cooperate with him Because Destiny, instead of thinking realistically and pragmatically about how to achieve his goal. That had a lot to do with how he alienated people who were like, "I'm not sure the odds are in our favor and nothing you're saying is convincing me you have a great plan here." Instead of convincing them he had a great plan, he'd get into a bad feedback loop wherein he insisted it was his divine right to be king, and they withdrew their support, and he got frustrated at the lack of support, and round and round it went.
When things were going well, he could be quite charming and popular, hence the nickname and the romanticizing PR. But when things didn't go well, not so much.
Re: The Backstory for the '45