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cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2021-10-04 10:27 pm
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Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters, Discussion Post 31

And in this post:

-[personal profile] luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!

-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and [personal profile] selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!

-[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War

(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)

-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: First Part of the '45 (up to Derby)

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-10-10 04:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, okay, I've seen it both ways in previous salon posts and just picked one at semi-random.

My search function tells me Selena has said "Butcher Cumberland" 3 times and "Butcher of Cumberland" 1 time. I only have memories of seeing "Butcher Cumberland" in my reading, though it's possible reputable sources do use "Butcher of Cumberland" and I either haven't encountered them or my memory is failing me.

(But wouldn't the proper analogy be "Detective of Midgard" rather than "Detective of Mildred"? ;) )

Ha! I knew you were going to say that. ;) They feel different to me, because the "of" in "Duke of X" isn't the same as the "of" in "Mildred of X": one is "[title] [over] [domain]" and the other "[person] [from] [place]". My impression has always been that "Duke of Cumberland" was like "Prince of Wales," in the sense that it was granted to members of the royal family who were of the appropriate rank and needed a title to go with their rank. I don't think William was associated with Cumberland much more than Frederick was with Wales. I mean, maybe he was granted an estate and some income from the region? but I don't think he spent time there when not crushing a Jacobite rebellion. Saying "of" to mean "from" would feel weird to me in his case.

Wikipedia says:

Duke of Cumberland is a peerage title that was conferred upon junior members of the British Royal Family, named after the historic county of Cumberland.

The dukedom was created in the Peerage of England in 1644 for Prince Rupert of the Rhine, nephew of King Charles I. When he died without male heirs, the title was created again in the Peerage of England in 1689 for Prince George of Denmark, husband of Princess Anne, younger daughter of King James II. He also died without heirs, in 1708. Neither of these men, however, was usually known by his peerage title.

The third creation, in the Peerage of Great Britain, was for Prince William, the third son of King George II. Other titles granted to Prince William were Marquess of Berkhampstead, Earl of Kennington, Viscount Trematon and Baron Alderney. Since the Prince died unmarried and without children, his titles became extinct at his death.


I agree that if we're talking about like the Duke of Brunswick, I would have a different reaction to "of", since the dukes actually lived there and/or came from there, in addition to having the title. Though that's almost entirely because I would be able to say "Ferdinand of Brunswick" (just like Rupert of the Rhine, George of Denmark) in a way that "William of Cumberland," without the "Duke".

I am open to counterevidence, though! I'm not a hundred percent sure here. (Except that I've definitely seen "Butcher Cumberland" way more than "Butcher of Cumberland," even if someone proves the latter does exist.)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)

Re: First Part of the '45 (up to Derby)

[personal profile] luzula 2021-10-11 09:47 pm (UTC)(link)
In Scotland, the "of Placename" naming system was used for gentry (even if you just owned a small farm), not just for the peerage. And you were generally adressed as Placename. For example, if your name is Ewen Cameron, then there are probably hundreds more with the same name, so using either first or last name doesn't help much. But if you are also laird of Ardroy, then it makes sense to adress you by that as your name. (Ewen of course also has a hereditary Gaelic chieftain title "Mac 'ic Ailein" = "son of Allan", and a Gaelic form of his name, Eoghan, and also a Gaelic nickname to distinguish himself from other Eoghans, "Eoghan Mor", or "Tall Ewen".)

If someone doesn't have that sort of name (such as BPC's military officer Lord George Murray) you can tell that he's not a landowner and thus a younger son.

ETA: Actually you will not see Ewen adressed as "Eoghan Mor", but "Eoghain Mhoir", which is in the vocative. Guess how glad I am to have an Irish person who knows Gaelic in the fandom! Very happy, that's what. Oops, this somewhat sidetracked into Flight of the Heron stuff...
Edited 2021-10-11 22:13 (UTC)

Re: First Part of the '45 (up to Derby)

(Anonymous) 2021-10-13 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Ha ha, yes, a completely random example! *g*