Entry tags:
Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters, Discussion Post 31
And in this post:
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luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!
-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and
selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!
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mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War
(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
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-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
Re: Yuletide surprise
I checked but didn't register that the 2 requests I saw were at the end of the page and I should navigate to the next page to make sure there weren't any more! All hail Selena, close inspector of requests.
Ahahahaha yes don't inflict break-it-differently on a poor newbie
Lol, yes, I get the impression v_v_lala is not looking for "Katte gets life imprisonment, is disillusioned by Fritz's paranoia in 1740, ends up in England." :P
I did say I wanted to be convinced of Fritz/Katte, which is easiest to do by writing a fic. Argh. Well, we'll see how I feel after finishing my assignment :P
LOLOLOL You see how long our resolutions last.
Re Fritz and Katte, one thing that's occurred to me recently that I don't think I've said in salon is that given what we (mostly felis) have found re Keyserlingk, and given what Prussian Count Rothenburg's wife said about Katte, "charmant mais etourdi"--charming but giddy, there may have been a similar dynamic. I.e., Katte probably did, as I suspected, distract Fritz from his woes by being cheerful, energetic, and affectionate. (Thougy presumably less over-the-top than Keyserlingk, or at least there's no way I can write that, so he's definitely going to be in any fic I produce. :P)
Brought to you by "What is Fritz's type?", which Selena asked me long ago, when I had less data. I suspect that if Peter Keith had been like this, he might have had a better chance post-1740. Although he still wouldn't have been made envoy. ;)
Re: Yuletide surprise
Well, quite. Unfortunately, the way my mind is wired produces only the following „Five Ways Katte lives“
1.) Fritz dies, Katte lives, Wilhelmine avenges. (I.e. Fiat Justitia)
2.) FW accepts the war tribunal‘s sentence for Katte, Katte gets freed and honored in 1740, but he and Fritz are so different people now that Katte ends up disillusioned and ready to start a truly new life in England.
3.) Katte never leaves England the first time he‘s there, despite Dad‘s objections, befriends Fritz of Wales instead of Fritz of Prussia, gets involved in Hannover drama accordingly, which doesn‘t end lethally but with bitchy memoirs. Meanwhile, Hervey‘s way back from the Grand Tour includes a stopover in Prussia where he befriends Fritz of Prussia. This leads to Fritz developing a very different literary taste which includes Shakespeare! But he never meets Katte. Hervey certainly has no intention to die for so sweet a prince, though. His solution is to tell all to the Queen.
4.) Katte does everything as in canon until the point where he gets his warning. Then he hightales it out of Berlin poste haste, leaving all the papers unburned. This means FW gets to read a great many letters between Wilhelmine and Fritz with uncomplimentary passages about himself, is accordingly even more angry when Wilhelmine
volunteers as tributeTries to plead with him and doesn‘t just hit her once, he hits her repeatedly, which leads to Wilhelmine dying of the results. Fritz never forgives himself or Katte for this and does not want to see Katte ever again.5.) Katte reports Fritz‘ escape ideas to FW the first time he hears them. FW reacts mildly, for FW, since there is no grand conspiracy and his soldiers are pleasingly loyal to him, not Fritz. Which is to say: he taunts Fritz some more, but no one gets locked up, let alone sentenced to death.
A year later, Fritz doesn‘t commit suicide, no, but when forced to participate in another hunt, he has an accident with a gun that results in his death. There are a few sad poems, and otherwise his life leaves no traces in European history.
5a) Not applicable even if v_v_lala were a break it differently type, since she has time travel in her DNWs: Fritz discovers time travel the way Fredersdorf does in my other story, travels back into his younger self‘s body and DOESN‘T befriend Katte. Instead, he treats Katte to the full Old Fritz verbal onslaught the first time Katte makes an overture, knowing that if Katte never befriends him, Katte will live. Katte does live, marries (as the oldest son), and has an unremarkable but mostly happy life far, far away from any Hohenzollern. Fritz loses his memories of the original timeline the moment he‘s changed it for good and so never knows what he‘s missing or what he‘s gained, either. He still tries to escape, of course, and still fails at it, but because he tries to escape with Peter Keith a few months earlier, it‘s Peter who gets executed in front of him instead. Otherwise Fritz‘ life is exactly as in canon.
Conclusion: Fritz/Katte is not a pairing a Fritz/Katte shipper wants me to write!
Re: Yuletide surprise
What about "G2 kills FW in 1729?"
which leads to Wilhelmine dying of the results. Fritz never forgives himself or Katte for this and does not want to see Katte ever again.
Wow. Seriously. :P
I mean, my "break it differently" Hunger Games epic ended in my protagonist's assisted suicide brought on by terminal illness + clinical depression, so it's not like I don't experience the urge to break things differently. Just not Fritz, Katte, and Wilhelmine.
Fritz, Katte, Wilhelmine, and Peter make it to Rottembourg's estate. Rottembourg adopts Fritz and leaves him a fortune. They all go to Italy on the Grand Tour together. The end. <3
(AW and Heinrich are not abused by Fritz, but Heinrich gets to channel his inner Fritz as the power behind the throne. Prussians and Austrians beware.)
Conclusion: Fritz/Katte is not a pairing a Fritz/Katte shipper wants me to write!
Lol, well, speaking for myself, you writing Fritz/Katte is fine! I'm delighted "Fiat Justitia" exists and had a wonderful time reading it. It's just...how do I say this...treat, not sole gift. ;) (Which is why getting the Madness gift to go with it was perfect. :))
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We're on the same page about Rheinsberg curtain fic. Yes plz! :)
Fandom DNWs vs. non-DNWs
But then I'm not a Fritz/Katte shipper. At least not yet. But this whole discussion made me realize even more than I already did (which was a lot) that I've super gone over to being a Fredersdorf groupie, because even though I'm totally okay with him not getting shipped with Fritz, I'm NOT willing to have break-it-worse-than-canon for him like I am for Fritz/Katte. Time travel bad stuff only okay if he fixes it at the end! NO FICTIONAL EMBEZZLEMENT! I'm just saying :)
(...and because I'm contrary and like to come up with exceptions, I realized it would be okay in a 4+1 scenario, where the last one was a fix-it or at least no worse than our view of canon. Lol.)
(I am still suuuuuper excited about Fiat Justitia, my awesomesauce gift :D Though yeah, for me mostly because WILHELMINE getting to DO stuff, and also Wilhelmine & Katte-after-Fritz, which is such an interesting relationship, not because of F/K as such.)
Re: Fandom DNWs vs. non-DNWs
I've super gone over to being a Fredersdorf groupie
Lol forever. You have! You've even contributed to his defense fund!
Um, are you okay if Fredersdorf is Sir Not Appearing in a fix-it fic in which Fritz escapes in 1730 and never becomes king, meaning he and Fritz never meet and he presumably doesn't get to love his best life (or at least not in the same way)?
Re: Fandom DNWs vs. non-DNWs
(All of which doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy reading Fredersdorf-less Fritz/Katte, especially written by you, and I suspect the same is true of Cahn.
BTW, while you and I both see Peter haunted by Katte in various ways, oddly enough I've never seen Fredersdorf developing a Katte complex, possibly because their stations in life and relationships with Fritz were too different. However, now I wonder whether one day I'll write a ghost story in which a literal ghost!Katte, looking for Fritz, encounters Fredersdorf instead and the two, different as they are, find they get along.
Re: Fandom DNWs vs. non-DNWs
Heee. I've always suspected that if Katte had lived, I'd have very little interest in him. It's just that a certain kind of tragedy always gives me an insatiable itch to scratch, and THAT DEATH SCENE.
oddly enough I've never seen Fredersdorf developing a Katte complex, possibly because their stations in life and relationships with Fritz were too different.
Yeah, I think Peter's complex (assuming he had one) was first of all being directly tied to the tragedy, being the one who lived while Katte died, and then to the fact that Fritz kept favoring the Kattes while basically ignoring him. Fredersdorf had no direct connection to the Katte tragedy, and a lot of favor from Fritz, so nothing to feel either guilty or insecure about.
However, now I wonder whether one day I'll write a ghost story in which a literal ghost!Katte, looking for Fritz, encounters Fredersdorf instead and the two, different as they are, find they get along.
Would read!
Re: Fandom DNWs vs. non-DNWs
well obviously the solution to this is OT3Well, actually not, because I see what you mean about Fredersdorf not developing a Katte complex, which I also think -- I think for me it's also because the Fritz he knew was always one who didn't have Katte in his life (as opposed to Peter), and Fredersdorf isn't the type, in my headcanon, to be jealous of someone who's dead and who literally can't be a living rival. I mean... maybe, if Fritz were the type to be all "I can't pay attention to you because too busy obsessing over my tragically dead boyfriend," but... we have abundant evidence that's not Fritz.(All of which doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy reading Fredersdorf-less Fritz/Katte, especially written by you, and I suspect the same is true of Cahn.
YUP. If he doesn't appear I am free to either not think about him at all (most likely) or to imagine him being happy doing something else (and maybe he doesn't do alchemy!!) even if maybe it's not quite as optimal and suited to him as being Fritz's guy! It's just, DON'T add an explicit line being like "...and because they never met, Fredersdorf ended up in bad straits and died in a ditch somewhere" and I'm good.
Re: Fandom DNWs vs. non-DNWs
Excellent! I mean, not that I'm optimistic about finishing this, but every other day I'm thinking about something I should add to it or change about it, so it's very much a living story in my head. ;)
maybe he doesn't do alchemy!!
Ooh, an excellent point! A minor fix-it for him too, in one respect.
even if maybe it's not quite as optimal and suited to him as being Fritz's guy!
Lol, I realized I typoed it "love his best life" above, and...that's a really great and accurate typo. <3
It's just, DON'T add an explicit line being like "...and because they never met, Fredersdorf ended up in bad straits and died in a ditch somewhere" and I'm good.
And I would NEVER!--*hugs Fredersdorf protectively*--so we're good.
Also, you guys, I gotta say...Fredersdorf got to live his best life IN REAL LIFE. Fiction is all Katte's got! :'-(
Re: Yuletide surprise
Tries to plead with him and doesn‘t just hit her once, he hits her repeatedly, which leads to Wilhelmine dying of the results. Fritz never forgives himself or Katte for this and does not want to see Katte ever again.
I might have gasped at loud at that one.
Not saying don't write this for me (write this for me!) but yeah, I think I'd prefer it as a treat too :P :) (Although partially because I'm not (yet?) a Fritz/Katte shipper, I just want lots of Heinrich &/ Fritz and/or Voltaire &/ Fritz if it's going to be the sole gift :D )
ETA: ...and then I checked my gifts and I have this DELIGHTFUL-looking Hapsburg present, so, you know, among other things, treat season is ON :P :D
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Have you seen the tags?? This looks amazing :D
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