*facepalm* I mean... that sure does sound like FW, all right. Both awful and MAKING NO SENSE.
Indeed. "I treated you extra awful in front of everyone so you should confide in me and improve your behaviour!" is...very special FW logic.
But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable.
So by this does he mean Katte? Or what?
At a guess, he means desertion. Katte, even if FW suspects them of having had sex, falls under debauched behavior, just about forgivable as a youthful flaw if properly repentant. But the army is the holiest of institutions, a deserter from it is a coward, hence, unforgivable. (Fast forward to Fritz' reaction when AW asks for permission to return to Berlin: What, you want to flee, while we fight to keep the state for you and your family? You want to set an example to cowards of the army, who may say: We are only asking for what the Prince of Prussia has obtained? Blush to the bottom of your soul the proposals you make to me; you speak of your honor: it lay in leading the army well and not to lose four battaillons, your magazine and your baggage in one stroke. I willl not entrust you another commando again for as long as I live. (...) But you may remain with the army I lead without your honor being impuned by this. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but you must know that I will deny you as my brother and family if you don't follow the demands of honor, the only one fitting for a Crown Prince! Mind you, that was during war time. Which it was not in 1730. But speak of doing a number on people through the generations...)
Fritz' money debts: I don't think we explicitly brought it up, no, but that was indeed a thing, and one of the reasons why FW was so pissed off in Zeithain already. After the flight attempt and Fritz' arrest, he ordered all of Fritz' books that could be found sold anonymously, which covered some of the debts, and paid for the rest. Here you can see where FW's paranoia comes from, for a change, when you recall that his father's Prussia had been bled dry in terms of money to finance the baroque life style of the King and court, and he, FW, had worked 24/7 to create a stable budget and economy again. Being afraid that a son in debts which he refuses to admit to would just turn out to be F1 reborn and reduce FW's life work to non existence was understandable in this context. However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
(The enforced crash course in economics he had Fritz take in Küstrin had the hoped for results in that Fritz, as a monarch, started out if anything even thriftier than FW...except for the arts. See also Barbarina, as Voltaire snarked, getting a higher salary than a Prussian cabinet minister.)
Predestition as a life long FW horror: yup. (F1: Look, he was getting into fights, refused to learn anything but maths and even once threatened his teacher! We had to do something!)
Re: the "no one cares if you life or die, your so called friends have all forgotten you" - as mentioned elsewhere, FW had ordered to tell this to Fritz in the autumn of 1730 already, there with the special addendum that even his mother didn't care. Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
Ahhhh, thank you! Of course, FW, it's all about the army *sigh* ...I remember you quoting that letter to AW, and it was awful even then, but thank you for bringing in the context, now it brings with it a special kind of intergenerational awfulness...
Debts: *nods* Ah, thanks, yeah, that's interesting, that on one hand (for a change, as you say) in some ways it does seem rather reasonable for FW to be upset (if maybe not that upset!)... and on the other hand, kind of not.
I can see being told "no one cares if you live or die," even if you do see through it rationally... could still do a number on your head psychologically, especially since no one is actually around to refute it (except, we hope, Wilhelmine (if the smuggling letters thing is true) -- and Fredersdorf!)
Being afraid that a son in debts which he refuses to admit to would just turn out to be F1 reborn and reduce FW's life work to non existence was understandable in this context.
This is very true.
However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
Agreed. And even the food, which Fritz admittedly splurged on, all his life unless there was good reason (like being at war) not to, feels to me very like overcompensation for not getting enough to eat. FW wants them to eat plain food frugally, fine. FW is actually sending them away from the table hungry, which from a variety of sources seems to have been the case, even allowing for some Wilhelmine exaggeration...you can really mess kids up that way.
If FW had met Fritz halfway instead of insisting on total submission and a complete mirror of himself, I think Fritz's spending wouldn't have gotten that bad, oh, and he would have shown far more interest in the army at a younger age, if it hadn't been being rammed down his throat. FW was in some ways his own worst enemy, and he and Fritz got into a very bad feedback loop.
Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
:/
The one thing that gives me hope was that even at Küstrin, complete strangers were apparently coming together to make his life easier. And he knew about the marital warfare that was his parents' marriage. And he knew even austere army guy Hans Heinrich let his son get an education and play the flute, LIKE EVERY OTHER NOBLE FATHER IN EUROPE. FW was always the outlier in Fritz's life, and he knew that.
I suspect his lifelong distrust in humanity can be accounted for without him having believed his mother and sister had forgotten about him. There's enough other bad stuff going on in his life to account for all sorts of psychological issues. (When I'm making up stories in my head, it generally takes me about two consecutive rounds of reincarnation to plausibly get even half of them under control, lol.)
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-14 06:15 am (UTC)*facepalm* I mean... that sure does sound like FW, all right. Both awful and MAKING NO SENSE.
Indeed. "I treated you extra awful in front of everyone so you should confide in me and improve your behaviour!" is...very special FW logic.
But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable.
So by this does he mean Katte? Or what?
At a guess, he means desertion. Katte, even if FW suspects them of having had sex, falls under debauched behavior, just about forgivable as a youthful flaw if properly repentant. But the army is the holiest of institutions, a deserter from it is a coward, hence, unforgivable. (Fast forward to Fritz' reaction when AW asks for permission to return to Berlin: What, you want to flee, while we fight to keep the state for you and your family? You want to set an example to cowards of the army, who may say: We are only asking for what the Prince of Prussia has obtained? Blush to the bottom of your soul the proposals you make to me; you speak of your honor: it lay in leading the army well and not to lose four battaillons, your magazine and your baggage in one stroke. I willl not entrust you another commando again for as long as I live. (...) But you may remain with the army I lead without your honor being impuned by this. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but you must know that I will deny you as my brother and family if you don't follow the demands of honor, the only one fitting for a Crown Prince! Mind you, that was during war time. Which it was not in 1730. But speak of doing a number on people through the generations...)
Fritz' money debts: I don't think we explicitly brought it up, no, but that was indeed a thing, and one of the reasons why FW was so pissed off in Zeithain already. After the flight attempt and Fritz' arrest, he ordered all of Fritz' books that could be found sold anonymously, which covered some of the debts, and paid for the rest. Here you can see where FW's paranoia comes from, for a change, when you recall that his father's Prussia had been bled dry in terms of money to finance the baroque life style of the King and court, and he, FW, had worked 24/7 to create a stable budget and economy again. Being afraid that a son in debts which he refuses to admit to would just turn out to be F1 reborn and reduce FW's life work to non existence was understandable in this context. However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
(The enforced crash course in economics he had Fritz take in Küstrin had the hoped for results in that Fritz, as a monarch, started out if anything even thriftier than FW...except for the arts. See also Barbarina, as Voltaire snarked, getting a higher salary than a Prussian cabinet minister.)
Predestition as a life long FW horror: yup. (F1: Look, he was getting into fights, refused to learn anything but maths and even once threatened his teacher! We had to do something!)
Re: the "no one cares if you life or die, your so called friends have all forgotten you" - as mentioned elsewhere, FW had ordered to tell this to Fritz in the autumn of 1730 already, there with the special addendum that even his mother didn't care. Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-15 07:05 pm (UTC)Debts: *nods* Ah, thanks, yeah, that's interesting, that on one hand (for a change, as you say) in some ways it does seem rather reasonable for FW to be upset (if maybe not that upset!)... and on the other hand, kind of not.
I can see being told "no one cares if you live or die," even if you do see through it rationally... could still do a number on your head psychologically, especially since no one is actually around to refute it (except, we hope, Wilhelmine (if the smuggling letters thing is true) -- and Fredersdorf!)
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-20 11:05 pm (UTC)This is very true.
However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
Agreed. And even the food, which Fritz admittedly splurged on, all his life unless there was good reason (like being at war) not to, feels to me very like overcompensation for not getting enough to eat. FW wants them to eat plain food frugally, fine. FW is actually sending them away from the table hungry, which from a variety of sources seems to have been the case, even allowing for some Wilhelmine exaggeration...you can really mess kids up that way.
If FW had met Fritz halfway instead of insisting on total submission and a complete mirror of himself, I think Fritz's spending wouldn't have gotten that bad, oh, and he would have shown far more interest in the army at a younger age, if it hadn't been being rammed down his throat. FW was in some ways his own worst enemy, and he and Fritz got into a very bad feedback loop.
Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
:/
The one thing that gives me hope was that even at Küstrin, complete strangers were apparently coming together to make his life easier. And he knew about the marital warfare that was his parents' marriage. And he knew even austere army guy Hans Heinrich let his son get an education and play the flute, LIKE EVERY OTHER NOBLE FATHER IN EUROPE. FW was always the outlier in Fritz's life, and he knew that.
I suspect his lifelong distrust in humanity can be accounted for without him having believed his mother and sister had forgotten about him. There's enough other bad stuff going on in his life to account for all sorts of psychological issues. (When I'm making up stories in my head, it generally takes me about two consecutive rounds of reincarnation to plausibly get even half of them under control, lol.)