cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2021-10-04 10:27 pm
Entry tags:

Frederick the Great and Other 18th-C Characters, Discussion Post 31

And in this post:

-[personal profile] luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!

-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and [personal profile] selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!

-[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War

(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)

-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
selenak: (Default)

In the Shadow of the Empress: The rest.

[personal profile] selenak 2021-10-06 01:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I’m on the road this entire week (and the next), so this will be on the fly, but here it goes:

Affair of the Necklace: nothing to complain about. I also believe her that the necklace in question looked terrible even though I haven’t seen it, since this era was not noted for featuring subtle jewelry.

French Revolution in general: also okay for the pov the book takes, though maybe it’s worth pointing out that both Louis and MA were in fact guilty of the main charge in their trials, which wasn’t having been King and Queen but conspiring with foreign armies against France and furthering an overthrow of the government with the help of said foreign armies. Since Louis had taken an oath on the new constitution, this also constituted a breaking of said oath. Now obviously the oath had been taken under pressure, and also the conspiring was done with the very real fear that their lives were at stake. But it still meant that the King and Queen of France were in league with foreign powers and doing their best to help said powers invade France. So, for all that both trials had an predestined outcome, the irony is that as opposed to the general accusations of tyranny and the vile slander of sexual molestation of her own son for MA, this particular charge was true, and the fairest court of the world would have had to find them guilty of it.

Speaking of revolutions: Goldstone is downplaying the Neapolitan Revolution and its brutal put-down as much as she can. And the paranoid atmosphere earlier with all the spying at Charlotte’s investigation is present as a harmless excentricity. Now again, given what happened to her sister, I very much understand Maria Carolina becoming paranoid as hell and becoming hardcore as a result even before events erupted - which of course alienated the progressive Neapolitans from her like at record pace. Goldstone revers to the revolutionaries as “collaborators” (of the French), which is biased framing, for while the short lived Neapolitan Republic was very much supported by the French, the main protagonists were long term progressives and the “best and brightest”’ of the nation. The reason why Charlotte is still massively unpopular in Italy is the charge that Southern Italy never quite recovered from the intellectual bloodletting that followed, once Nelson came through on the royal side. To quote wiki: “Of some 8,000 political prisoners, 99 were executed, including Prince Gennaro Serra, who was publicly beheaded, and others, such as the intellectual Mario Pagano, who had written the republican constitution; the scientist, Domenico Cirillo; Luisa Sanfelice; Gabriele Manthoné, the minister of war under the republic; Massa, the defender of Castel dell'Ovo; Ettore Carafa, the defender of Pescara, who had been captured by treachery; and Eleonora Fonseca Pimentel, court-poet turned revolutionary and editor of il Monitore Napoletano, the newspaper of the republican government. More than 500 other people were imprisoned (222 for life), 288 were deported and 67 exiled. The subsequent censorship and oppression of all political movement was far more debilitating for Naples.”

In her novel about Sir William Hamilton, “The Volcano Lover”, Susan Sontag gives Eleonora Fonseca Pimentel the last word. (The novel is written in third person for the most part, with four first person narration epilogues, and the last one is by Eleonora, waiting for her execution and cursing Emma, Charlotte and the Royals and British in general.) Alexandre Dumas in his mid 19th century written novel about Emma which is very sympathetic to her nonetheless has the repression of the Neapolitan revolution, which she enabled in order to help her friend, as the one sin that haunts her and the guilt that plagues her as her “sinful life” never does. In real life, Whig politician Charles James Fox denounced Nelson in the House of Commons for the admiral's part in "the atrocities at the Bay of Naples", national hero or not.

Again: given all this happened AFTER MA’s execution, it’s all too understandable that Charlotte thought “I’m not going to be executed by the rabble, down with all traitors, it’s kill or be killed!”, and that Emma thought she needed to save her friend from MA’s fate, and that Nelson thought the same thing. But to handwave everything the way Nancy Goldstone does and say “Napoleon killed way more people! Also it was Ferdinand not Charlotte who wanted them to die!” Is pretty partisan, as per usual. One of her sources, Kate Williams’ Emma biography “England’s Mistress” does a better job of putting things into perspective without indulging in whataboutism. Their contemporaries certainly thought it was a big deal.

Joseph’s reforms: yes, more or less true to what the problem was. Though again, the framing is important here, and to repeat what I said before - she leaves out the very first Joseph vs Mimi and Leopold clash in the 1760s, which was about Dad’s money, and Joseph wanting it for the ginormous Austrian war debts, while Leopold wanted it for Tuscany and Mimi just wanted the cash. Note that favourite or no, MT did not side with Mimi there. Whether Mimi, like Leopold, was against Joseph’s reforms because she could see that ramming them down people’s throats en masse was a disaster in the making, and that you had to introduce reforms differently, or whether she simply was way more conservative and didn’t want reforms at all is up to debate.

(Note that the author of the “Five Princesses” book points out that the Princesses were generally conservative, and several, like Eleonore Liechtenstein, deeply devout, and so very critical of many of Joseph’s reforms for this reason even before disaster unfolded. Her book has the ladies as her heroines, too, but she doesn’t try to put them in the right all the time.)

Also: three times, Goldstone says about Leopold’s son Franz (the future II): “He was trained by Joseph”. Which is a hilarious way of trying to blame Franz, who was an arch reactionary who couldn’t stand his uncle and vice versa, on Joseph. “Trained by Joseph” only in the sense that he became part of the army when Joseph was Emperor. But she could have said with way more truth “He was raised by Leopold”. Because he was. He still ruined not just what remained of Joseph’s but all of his father’s works when he became Emperor and took Austria back behind even MT’s own reforms. For which he himself is to blame. “Trained by Joseph’” my ass.

Joseph dying alone: without a family member present, true, but his friend Lacy was (that’s one of the two other male members of the friendship circle Joseph and the princesses formed), who had been there when Joseph’s daughter had died already, and held his hand on this occasion. Also, note that Eleonore Liechtenstein, who had her share of arguments with Joseph throughout their friendship (they were easily the two most thinskinned, temper-having and bullheaded members of the group), and did indeed befriend Mimi in her later years, wrote a far more generous epitaph for him than Goldstone did in a letter to her sister Leopoldine Kaunitz, to wit: We were often infuriated by him, but how much verve, life, enthusiasm and love for justice did he awaken in all of us!”

Lastly: Leopold and Mimi were allies, but he still didn’t send her and Albert back to Brussels unsupervised. He insisted that Metternich Senior (the father of the famous Metternich) was to go with them and do a part of the governing. From which you can deduce Leopold didn’t think the Netherlands revolting was all to blame on Joseph’s reforms and Napoleon and didn’t consider Mimi and Albert geniuses at governing.

ETA: Wait, you also asked about Mozart. While he was indeed in financial trouble when he died, the way of his burial was due to the Josephinian burial reforms, that’s true. (Amadeus doesn’t claim the opposite, btw. If it had been simply a matter of money, Salieri or van Swieten, both of whom are shown following the coffin up to a point, could have paid for a funeral. However, there wasn’t one available. If Salieri himself had died at this point, he would have been buried in the exact same manner.) Now, there was a point to this in that funerals often had been ruinously expensive, especially for poor families, because letting the dearly departed go out in style had become such a point of honor and showing off for all classes. But of course by prescribing the same type of re-usable coffin for everyone, Joseph did FW and Fritz one better and pissed off everyone as well.
Edited 2021-10-06 13:42 (UTC)
selenak: (Goethe/Schiller - Shezan)

Re: In the Shadow of the Empress: The rest.

[personal profile] selenak 2021-10-07 09:08 am (UTC)(link)
Salieri’s father did have a regular funeral, but then Salieri’s father died before Joseph was the one and only Emperor. (Leaving this aside, without looking it up, I’m not even sure Salieri came from the parts of Italy under Austrian rule. For all I know,l he came from the Spanish-ruled parts, or from the parts directly ruled by the Church, or, gasp, the self ruled parts (like Venice, for example).

Kate Williams’ Emma bio is a good one, yes. Re: The Volcano Lover, I only remember bits and pieces, it’s been thirty years, and I would have to reread in order to be sure whether or not to rec it to you. I mean, obviously Susan Sontag writes beautiful prose, but among the bits I remember was that all the characters around Sir William - his first wife, Emma, Nelson, even Eleonora the revolutionary who only gets one chapter - came across more vividly than him, which for a novel that is explicitly about him is odd. The other thing I recall is a minor point: Goethe has a cameo, and he is basically Thomas Mann. Which is understandable in that Susan Sontag met Thomas Mann in person when she was young, he was a major authorial influence on her, and Thomas Mann certainly believed he was Goethe, too. (His novel Lotte in Weimar Is mostly from old Charlotte Buff’s pov, but there is one chapter from Goethe’s, and he refered to it as his unio mystica with Goethe.) The problem is that Thomas Mann and Goethe were actually quite different, and so the brief Goethe portrait rubbed me the wrong way.

(Here’s a Thomas Mann joke for you from my student days: “Thomas Mann and some friends take the train. When it’s time for everyone’s tickets to be checked, TM discovers he’s forgotten his. The steward demands the penalty money. One of the friends says: “But don’t you recognize him, this is Germany’s greatest writer!” Whereupon the student says: “Beg pardon, Herr Goethe, I didn’t recognize you!”).
Edited 2021-10-07 19:54 (UTC)
selenak: (Scarlett by Olde_fashioned)

Emma on Film

[personal profile] selenak 2021-10-10 09:17 am (UTC)(link)
Emma on film so far - the most famous examples are (YouTube Trailers or scenes linked):

That Hamilton Womam (1941, a Winston Churchill favourite; Emma: Vivien Leigh, Nelson: Laurence Olivier (who notoriously wears the eyepatch on the wrong eye, but that didn't stop the film's popularity). Very romantic take, though Vivien Leigh gets to show off her acting skills in the framing scenes, which are showing middle-aged Emma the alcoholic beggarwoman in Calais who tells the story to a young woman she's arrested with. In the main film, she and Olivier are dashing and romantic (also they were real life lovers at this point, about to divorce their respective spouses and marry each other). And since it's WWII, Napoleon gets to stand in for Hitler (which I feel is unfair to Napoleon but done in a lot of movies of the time) while Nelson gets to make a Churchillian speech in the House of Lords against Appeasements. Maria Carolina is an Italian Mamma type, and the scriptwriters seem to be under the impression "Queen of Naples" means "born in Naples".

Lady Hamilton: a French/German production with Michelle Mercier as Emma. Very very loosely based on Dumas' novel. The novel offers lesbian subtext for Emma and Charlotte (not an Italian), and the film doubles up on that - you can see one of the scenes in the trailer I linked - , but it's basically Eurotrash, a bodice ripper where Michelle Mercier gets to have as many bed scenes as possible.

A Bequest to the Nation, screenplay by Terrence Rattigan. Emma: Glenda Jackson. Nelson: Peter Finch. This one, a deliberately anti-romantic film, set after Sir William has already died, in the last year of Nelson's life, actually has Nelson's wife as the heroine, with Emma and Nelson basically as Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton as seen in the 1960s by the yellow press - vulgar gloryhounds (and boozers) addicted to each other, not caring about the human damage. (Or rather, Nelson does care a bit, he knows his wife doesn't deserve the treatment, but he's too weak and too addicted to Emma to say no.) Still, Rattigan isn't without sympathy for his version of Emma and he is very good with damaged female characters in general; he does show that her over the top behavior is rooted in her awareness of her past as a powerless teenage prostitute and the fear Nelson will leave her and do what every man (other than the late Sir William) has done, ditch the mistress and stick with the wife. There's a final scene in which Emma and Lady Nelson meet after Nelson's death and reconcile, and the title of course refers to the famous passage in Nelson's last will where he left Emma as a "bequest to the nation" and the nation promptly ignored said bequest in favour of erecting a statue at Trafalgar Square and getting rid of the mistress.

Edited 2021-10-10 09:18 (UTC)
selenak: (Scarlett by Olde_fashioned)

There never was a tale of greater woe...

[personal profile] selenak 2021-10-18 06:41 am (UTC)(link)
Vivien Leigh and Laurence Olivier: it's actually a sad story for how it ended. As mentioned, they both married young, then met at the set of "Fire over England" (typical bodice ripper, he's a Sir Walter Raleigh wannabe, she's a lady-in-waiting to Queen Elizabeth), fell in love, and eventually left their respective spouses for each other. Hollywood beckoned, Vivien Leigh landed the female role of the decade with Scarlett O'Hara, and Olivier didn't do badly himself with playing Maxim de Winter in Hitchcock's "Rebecca". Having obtained their divorces, they married (to the great relief of the studio bosses), and returned to England, because WWII.

And then various things over the next two decades happened.

1) Vivien Leigh was bi polar, and there was little to no idea of how to handle this back then. Mostly the people around her thought the cycles of giddy heights and deep depression were spoiled star behavior, despite her doctors pointing out it was a genuine mental problem.

2) Olivier was rapidly considered as the best (stage) actor of his generation, but this never quite translated to the movies, including his own Shakespeare films. He's good in several of them, don't get me wrong, but the effect he must have had on a live audience according to evreyone's descriptions just isn't there. Meanwhile, the camera had loved Vivien Leigh. They didn't act together in movies anymore after "That Hamilton Woman", but they acted repeatedly on stage, where the critical lords of the day, especially Kenneth Tynan who was an Olivier fanboy of the first order, trounced her for not being at his level. (This did wonders for her mental condition.) Conversely, if she did act far, far away from him in the movies, like in the film version of "Streetcar named Desire" which she got her second Oscar for, you had director Elia Kazan suspecting Olivier must be secretly coaching her. (Which was rubbish.)

3) She also had miscarriages and got tuberculosis.

4) True fact sounding like a story: Terence Rattigan's screenplay for "The VIPs" - filmed with Elizabeth Taylor and Richard burton - was inspired by something that happened to the Oliviers, with Vivien nearly leaving him for Peter Finch but fog preventing the plane from taking off so Laurence Olivier made it to the airport and could persuade her to stay with him.

6) In the end, though, he left her, for Joan Plowright. (Who'd played his daughter in "The Entertainer".) After a few more years on her own, she died.

7) According to his son Tarquin, in old age Laurence Olivier when watching "That Hamilton Woman" on the telly got tears in his eyes and said "This was real. This was love". (To which Joan Plowright presumably said "Thanks, Larry", I guess. She's a fabulous old woman herself now, as can be seen in the movie "Tea with the Dames" which is streaming on Amazon Prime in my region at last.)
selenak: (Scarlett by Olde_fashioned)

Re: There never was a tale of greater woe...

[personal profile] selenak 2021-10-22 10:09 am (UTC)(link)
Some more Leigh and/or Olivier related links to old posts of mine:

A Streetcar Named Desire

My week with Marylin

Tea with the Dames

And here's a shipper's vid proving, if nothing else, that they were a gorgeous couple: In my life
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: In the Shadow of the Empress: The rest.

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-10-09 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Kate Williams’ Emma bio is a good one, yes.

Have read the Kindle sample on your recommendation, and will probably buy it at some point. Very readable!

Whereupon the student says: “Beg pardon, Herr Goethe, I didn’t recognize you!”).

Okay, that is hilarious. :D
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: In the Shadow of the Empress: DNA Testing

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-10-08 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
ETA: would like the scholars of salon to take a look at this paper and see if you buy their historical argument that these were probably Louis XVII and Marie-Therese's hair locks. It sounded plausible to me, but, well, a lot of things sound plausible to me :P I assume the DNA analysis part is correct!

I have to work, so no elaboration now, but I've read the paper and done some googling, and both the history and the DNA analysis seem suspect to me. That doesn't mean the conclusion is wrong, but there are so many red flags that the most generous conclusion I can draw is that the write-up is sloppy, and that doesn't inspire confidence that the work wasn't equally sloppy.

I also got my hands on the paper that analyzed the purported heart of Louis XVII, and *wow* was it more professional.

More when I have time!
Edited 2021-10-08 13:38 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Louis XVII or Lab Assistant?: How Not to Do a DNA Analysis

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-10-08 05:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I find ijsciences on a couple of lists of "predatory journals."

Ahh, good thinking! This surprises me not at all, given the paper.

"The price is low, but the cost of having your research appear here will be high" for another journal is hilarious.

Okay, on to the red flags!

Red flag 1. If you're attempting to sequence DNA, your number one concern should be contamination. Everything that has come into contact with the sample could deposit DNA on it, which will show up in your sequencing. When your sample is 200 years old, that's time for a lot of contamination!

Contamination isn't mentioned by Lucotte (the author of the Louis XVII's paper) at all. What precautions they took around not introducing new contamination, and how they dealt with the possibility of existing contamination, was one of the things I was looking for, and when I didn't see it, alarm bells started going off.

In contrast, Jehaes et al. 2001 (the Louis XVII's heart paper) has an entire paragraph dedicated to this subject, opening with:

From the outset of this study, every effort was made to recover ancient DNA samples free of contamination by contemporary DNA.

Related to this is the total lack of any consideration that the color of the hair samples might be due to environmental considerations over the last 200 years. Even Selena knew to comment when Martin Katte opened Hans Hermann's coffin and found him to be a blond, that this might be because the body had lain in a rotting coffin for hundreds of years.

If you read Lucotte, you'll think everything was handed to him in pristine condition through a time machine by lab scientists who took all the appropriate precautions. Contamination, what's that?

Red flag 2. When you amplify the DNA in a 200-year-old sample using PCR, you're almost certainly going to find DNA sequences from different people who've handled the lock of hair before your team (who hopefully used precautions) came into contact with it.

No mention of this in Lucotte 2019. The analysis he presents is that the Y chromosomes between Louis XVI and Louis XVII totally lined up, with the exception of one question mark where they apparently didn't have a data point. Wow, everything lined up perfectly! He's either not looking for contamination, or he's cherry-picking the results that gave the conclusion he wanted.

In contrast, Jehaes 2001 repeatedly mentions when the authors suspected contamination, and when they had to throw out results because of it:

In one DNA extract of the heart muscle, the same sequence was also observed but with a minor contamination.

The long fragments (whole HV1 and HV2) showed a mixture of two sequences at three positions which could be due to contamination. Therefore the sequencing results of these extracts were not reliable.

The second hair of Marie-Antoinette (Cannes) showed multiple ambiguous positions, which indicated contamination.

So either Lucotte filtered out any non-matching DNA without mentioning it (bad science writing), or he didn't look for contamination (bad science). If the latter, either he got super lucky and he's looking Louis XVII's DNA, or we could be looking at any male here.

Red flag 3: The confidence attached to the statistical analysis (or lack thereof) in the conclusions. So you know how I was suspicious that the two Y chromosomes lined up with basically 100% agreement in the alleles? The authors decide that this means they can declare with 100% confidence that:

The Y-STRs profile obtained is strictly identical to that of Louis XVI (Lucotte et al., 2016). This establishes that Louis XVI is the biological father of Louis XVII.

Or, that this sample was taken from one of his brothers? Or his father? Or any number of other possibilities (one of which I'll discuss below)? "This establishes" on data like this is not responsible science.

In contrast, Jehaes 2001 discusses the strength of their conclusions and admits there are limits to what we can conclude:

This means that it is 166 (or 206) times more likely that the heart is from a member of the Habsburg family than from an unrelated individual.

It is of course impossible, based on these results, to prove that it belonged to the son of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette and not to another maternal relative of the Habsburg family. Indeed, only historic data will, in the absence of nuclear markers of the child and his parents, be able to fill this gap.

Red flag 4: My eyebrows flew up at "in some present time descendants of Marie-Antoinette (notably for the present day living Queen Anna of Romania)," because I was pretty sure that MA's daughter didn't leave any known descendants, and that the study of the heart (remember, I own a book on this subject) used descendants of MA's sister(s). Sure enough, Jehaes 2001 says, " living maternal relatives of Louis XVII and his two aunts and mother."

Red/yellow flag 5: The author is comparing DNA that he's decided is from Louis XVII to DNA that he decided in a previous paper belonged to Louis XVI. Now, I haven't read his previous paper, but the moment I see someone repeatedly citing themselves, I have to go see if I can find anything out about the quality of this person's other work. Obviously, people build on their previous work! But if this paper is this sloppy, then the previous paper may have been equally sloppy, and now my uncertainty that the author's found anything is compounded. I call this "house of cards" research.

So I went and looked at what other work he's done.

Well, Wikipedia says Lucotte has been basically ostracized from the scientific community for his opinions on race. I read his quotes and realize that while I disagree with them, they're not necessarily worse than what a lot of reputable scientists say, and he may have been quoted out of context. So we'll let that slide.

But he's also 100% sure that the Argenteuil Tunic was worn by Jesus and that he has Jesus' DNA! And that based on his analysis, Jesus was an opium addict and had crabs!

Oh, look, he does believe in the existence of contamination when it involves other scientists claiming that the tunic only dates from the 6th-7th century CE. No, it's real and it was Jesus's! Oh, and according to this review (I haven't bothered tracking down the actual article), okay, I have to quote this delightful phrasing:

The Vatican will be happy to learn that he shaves once a week, was addicted to drugs and had crabs ...

Congratulations, Lucotte, your scholarship is worse than Goldstone's!

(Just to be clear, the conclusions are Lucotte's, the "Vatican" phrasing is the reviewer getting sarcastic.)

So in conclusion, nothing about the identical alignment of the Y chromosome alleles in his Louis XVII sample and his Louis XVI sample allows me to distinguish between these scenarios:

1. Louis XVI was the father of Louis XVII.
2. The same male assistant working in Lucotte's lab handled both samples.

There are many other scenarios I could go into, but won't bother. This was a totally enjoyable way to spend my lunch break, though. :)
Edited 2021-10-08 18:42 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Louis XVII or Lab Assistant?: How Not to Do a DNA Analysis

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-10-10 04:31 pm (UTC)(link)
I figured you might well know more about DNA testing than I did :)

So the thing is, I got interested in genetics about 10 years ago, and a couple of times since then I've thought, "Wouldn't it be cool to do bioinformatics for a living?" and started trying to teach myself enough to change careers. I always get sidetracked by things like "Frederick the Great," which shows that I'm not committed enough to give up my hobbies long enough to make it happen. But it does mean that I can read papers like this and know at least some of what I should be looking for.

There's also the part where my main, non-career interest in genetics is paleoanthropological, where contamination is a big, big deal. All the more so because 40,000 years' worth of DNA degradation means there's a whole lot less intact original genomic material to work with. So I just happen to know a thing or two about what you do and do not do when you get your hands on some old DNA. (And I kind of laughed at the paper calling Louis XVII's DNA "ancient." It's all perspective, I guess!)

This is also why when salon starts talking about "Just how inbred was the genetic wonder of Spain, anyway?" I start calculating coefficients. ;)

where they're claiming the whole 100% identical thing, which I missed the first time around, and yeeeeeah that's a red flag.

You know, even on the Jerry Springer-type talk shows that my mother and sister used to watch in my vicinity, where they try to establish paternity in the most dramatic way possible, I remember overhearing things like, "Based on these DNA results, there is a 99.xx percent probability that you are/are not the father," not "This establishes that you truly are the father."

So when I read about 100% certainty based on 100% alignment, I start thinking, "Maybe we've proved that grad student A is the same person as grad student B who needs a better advisor." :P
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Nature articles

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-10-10 04:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Not that Nature papers can't be suspect, but they're much less likely to be;

So, funny story. As you know, I got my PhD in a non-science field. And right as I was writing my dissertation on irregular verbs in English, Nature published a paper analyzing irregular verbs in English. Written by a team of scientists (biologists?) who were like, "We know statistics. That means we're qualified to do statistics on warm and fuzzy fields that we don't respect, like linguistics! Let's show those linguists how real science is done!"

And that paper got mocked relentlessly in my field. Because one, they took a really obvious and well-known premise and cast their number-crunching as a Big Discovery, in a way that felt super condescending. As the head of my program put it, "If only linguists ever thought of such things!"

And second, because they missed all the other factors at work. It was like if a biologist came along and ran a statistical analysis of the geographical distribution of Protestants and Catholics in central Europe and explained Fritz's wars solely in terms of this one factor. Historians would be like, "Thanks? It's nice to have the numbers, but we kind of already knew religion was relevant? And you're forgetting all the other explanatory causes? Maybe because you're NOT HISTORIANS?"

So hilariously, I, who had *only* ever heard of Nature in the context of this one article, got the impression that this was a popular magazine where anybody could publish on anything, like biologists on linguistics, and not a serious journal. :P

It was only when I used the word "popular" in my dissertation that one of my committee members was taken aback and had to set me straight.

Me: "Okay, I'll take your word for it and remove that word, but it doesn't *seem* like they're doing serious science."

Lol.
Edited 2021-10-10 16:49 (UTC)