Recently, we were exploring the possibility of an AU where Fritz is captured by the Austrians, put on trial, and defended by Voltaire after attempts by Heinrich to recapture him failed.
selenak asked: "And would it be plausible that he starts an argument when the secret prisoner exchange is on, which is why it doesn't work out, which is why Voltaire can still do the rescue via publicity campaign?"
I replied: "I wish I could find the source, and I will keep an eye out because I feel like it's a letter and not just a novel, I mean biography, but I have a memory of Fritz saying something like, 'If I'm captured, you're not to make any concessions to get me back; the welfare of the state comes first.'"
Well, I found it! Asprey cites the letter, and though he doesn't give me a page number or a date or anything (other than shortly before Mollwitz), he narrowed it down enough that I was able to track it down in the Political Correspondence.
Translation mine:
By the way, I have twice escaped the designs of the Austrian hussars [viz, to capture him]. If I suffer the misfortune of being taken alive, I absolutely order you, and you will answer for it with your head, that in my absence you will not respect my orders, that you will serve as counselor to my brother, and that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom. On the contrary, I wish and I order that, in this event, the state act even more vigorously than ever.
If I'm killed, I want my body burned and placed in an urn at Rheinsberg [this is 1741, several years before Sanssouci is built]. Knobelsdorff [his architect] should in this case make a monument like that of Horace at Tusculum.
Either Fritz's memory or mine is faulty here: help me out, selenak? I only remember Cicero living at Tusculum (hence the Tusculan Disputations), but I'm more of a Hellenist than a Romanist. I do remember that Horace's villa had turned up by Fritz's time, but not in Tusculum. I also remember that Algarotti's monument later commissioned by Fritz has a phrase from Horace that was popular to put on graves: "non omnis"--meaning the body of the individual is buried here, but their spirit or the memory of them or their works or whatever you consider most important, lives on.
But I am drawing a blank on what specific monument Fritz may be thinking of here.
Anyway! It's quite possible that if there's a prisoner exchange, Fritz is torn between wanting to go free and wanting the state to demand major concessions in return for Joseph.
It's also interesting that there's the "you will not follow any orders I give in captivity" line in there. Clearly he believes that he would cave under pressure and sign orders that as a free man he wouldn't want followed, no matter what the cost to him. His experience caving in Küstrin might be informing this decision. At any rate, it's very psychologically revealing.
I still think that ~1760!Fritz, used to being in command and with 100% control issues, most likely jumps at the chance to get out of prison and back into the saddle, especially if it's a prisoner exchange instead of territorial concessions--long precedent for honorable exchanges of prisoners in warfare. But we at least have this passage to point to if you want him to be torn.
Oh, here's an idea. Maybe Fritz can't imagine that they have Joseph, so when the Austrians are willingly if unofficially letting him go, he imagines that the only reason they would do that is if they got major concessions out of Prussia. So he starts yelling like a maniac at his would-be rescuers, ordering them to go away and hang onto Silesia, or at least pre-1740 Prussia, at all costs, and he'll commit suicide if that's what it takes. And because Fritz has never been the world's greatest listener once he gets an idea into his head, they never have the chance to explain that it's an unofficial prisoner exchange.
So the Prussian officers shrug and decide, "Okay, the king wants us to trade Joseph for Silesia. Makes sense, if you're an amazing Roman Stoic monarch who puts the state first. Heinrich, you'd better build a hell of a monument to commemorate our king's glorious sacrifice!"
Heinrich: Oh, I've got a monument at Rheinsberg in mind. It may not be what you're expecting.
It's Fritz. Doesn't surprise me, since even decades later, Lucchesini remarks on the fact that Fritz' Horace appreciation is limited by the fact he knowly knows the odes via French translation. And it's in the odes that Horace gives enough descriptions of his villa to make people wonder where the place was from the Renaissance onwards and eventually succeed; finding it was a well documented effort since Renaissance times. In Epistles 1.10) that his villa was next to the sanctuary of the Sabine goddess, Vacuna. Lucas Holstenius (a mid-17th century geographer and a librarian at the Vatican Library) identified the sanctuary with the temple of the goddess Victory mentioned in the inscription, and he showed that the Romans associated the Sabine deity with their goddess Victoria. At a guess, this Victory goddess bit is why young King Fritz wants a Horace like villa.
Now, as you say, Cicero''s Villa is in Tusculum. Horace's is not, and was never believed to be - he gives enough markers to where it was for people to eventually find it, and Tusculum is not in (former) Sabine territory. So I'm thinking Fritz simply confused his ancient Roman villas, aided by the fact he's never been in Italy and Italian geography probably isn't high on his list of priorities early in the Silesian wars.
It's also interesting that there's the "you will not follow any orders I give in captivity" line in there. Clearly he believes that he would cave under pressure and sign orders that as a free man he wouldn't want followed, no matter what the cost to him. His experience caving in Küstrin might be informing this decision. At any rate, it's very psychologically revealing.
Oh absolutely. Küstrin is only a decade away, he hasn't been a monarch with absolute power for long, he still remembers that he's been made to submit completely (minus the argument about the predestination doctrine). (And then continue to submit in more minor ways by the very fact he had to keep on Dad's good side for the next ten years.)
long precedent for honorable exchanges of prisoners in warfare.
Not to mention that Fritz himself had Seckendorff kidnapped for the very purpose of exchanging him in just such a manner. I like the idea that a combination of inherent paranoia and a misunderstanding causing him to respond badly and thereby ruining the prisoner exchange, though.
Does Heinrich exchange Joseph for Silesia? The problem here is that unlike an exchange of prisoners, which can happen at once to both party's satisfaction, an exchange of person versus territory under duress can be nullified easily after the fact. I mean: even in Silesia 1, British advice to MT was to concede to Fritz what he wants to have for now and later when she's in a better possession point out she only did so under duress and her agreement is not worth anything. What with Fritz being the armed highwayman here. Which is sort of what she did and hence Silesia 2. So if I were Heinrich, I'd want something more than yet another "okay, you can have Silesia" which could easily be broken as soon as Joseph is back on Austrian soil.
Hmm. MT additionally offers to have the Reichstag okay a change in the order of succession for Prussia? No, not to make Heinrich King, to depose Frit and make young FW King now and acknowledge him as such through all the princes on Austria's side. This means Heinrich doesn't look like a self interested ursurper, and hey, Fritz always said he was planning to retire in favour of AW or AW's heirs anyway after the war.
Doesn't surprise me, since even decades later, Lucchesini remarks on the fact that Fritz' Horace appreciation is limited by the fact he knowly knows the odes via French translation.
Plus confusing Quintus Icilius (not a Roman name as far as I know) with Quintus Caecilius, and as you pointed out, Pliny with Ovid (I think you're right about that, and good catch). Thank you for expanding on the Italian archaeology; I remembered Horace's villa being identifiable because he'd provided enough description to track it down, but none of the other detail.
Not to mention that Fritz himself had Seckendorff kidnapped for the very purpose of exchanging him in just such a manner.
I was thinking of exactly this, which is why I tried to come up with a reason for him to refuse something other than an explicit prisoner exchange.
Does Heinrich exchange Joseph for Silesia?
Now, that's a whoooole different kettle of fish. I like your idea about changing the succession! Fritz's "but I'm going to retire, I swear!" comes back to bite him. :P
Does Heinrich give him Rheinsberg back? The other-self symmetry of, "Here, I have a country to run" would be amaaaazing.
Also, given Fritz's memories of a happier time at Rheinsberg, and the fact that he talked about retiring so often because he *knew* that being king wasn't making him happy, even if he never could shake his addiction to control (and btw it behaves exactly like an addiction)...maybe after some years of hating and resenting the path that led him back here, he discovers that he is actually happier where he is, brushing up on his Romans and hanging out with friends. And of course he rewrites history so that it was his idea all along--Henri de Catt can testify, after all!--because everything that works out has to be *Fritz's* idea.
Yes, he gets Rheinsberg back. (Though Heinrich is going to miss it, he loved that place as much as Fritz did.) Mind you, while I do think retirement could turn out to be the best thing ever to hoppen to Fritz at this point, finally freeing him from his self chosen galley, I would like to point out that MT's offer is only her public plan. Don't forget, in secret, she's sent the Chevalier d'Eon on a rescue mission, and of course if the Chevalier does manage to rescue Joseph, then everything is off the table.
If we don't want to make Fritz too stubborn, he can even agree to the prisoner's exchange, but then before it can happen, in the eleventh hour the Chevalier rescues Joseph and Fritz is back in Austrian captivity. Though MT mmight remember that offer of Young King FW/Regent Heinrich + Retired For Good To Rheinsberg Fritz = Peace once Voltaire's campaign really takes off and she decides this whole Fritz on trial thing is just more trouble than it's worth, still a bad precedent, and did that scoundrel Voltaire really just threaten to publish a trashy tell all about her court, co-starring beloved husband's mistresses (painful, but has happened once or twice before) and beloved daughter-in-law carrying on with beloved daughter (no way!)? (Seydlitz picked something up from Isabella's reaction and told Voltaire.)
Yes, he gets Rheinsberg back. (Though Heinrich is going to miss it, he loved that place as much as Fritz did.)
True. He renovated it heavily, and it's not going to look the same as when Fritz lived there. Now I'm imagining Fritz demanding funds to re-renovate, lol. But Heinrich can build his own palace! There's all these funds for the Neues Palais that won't be needed any more. (cahn, construction was begun as soon as the Seven Years' War ended.)
retirement could turn out to be the best thing ever to hoppen to Fritz at this point, finally freeing him from his self chosen galley
But first he has to have the initial angry-letter-writing campaign about how everything that happened was extremely everyone else's fault. :P But when he's not writing letters and going crazy over not being in control, he's spending his time doing the things he actually wants to do in life, and eventually the momentum builds up to where it's the best thing for him.
If we don't want to make Fritz too stubborn, he can even agree to the prisoner's exchange, but then before it can happen, in the eleventh hour the Chevalier rescues Joseph and Fritz is back in Austrian captivity.
I like this, and I like it even more if we can work in some resistance from Fritz along the lines of "You're not giving away anything important, right? We're still fighting this war? Oh, it's a prisoner exchange. Okay. Cool. And the prisoner is of sufficiently high rank that I'm not being insulted? Just making sure."
did that scoundrel Voltaire really just threaten to publish a trashy tell all about her court, co-starring beloved husband's mistresses (painful, but has happened once or twice before) and beloved daughter-in-law carrying on with beloved daughter (no way!)? (Seydlitz picked something up from Isabella's reaction and told Voltaire.)
Justice through trashy tell-alls! White Knight to the rescue, Voltaire-style. OMG, this is great. Do it!
I like it, I like all of it. Fritz puts up some resistance and only agrees to the exchange once he's assured it meets all of his criteria, the Chevalier gets to shine--oh, man, Heinrich is going to *hear* about that, Retired For Good to Rheinsberg (TM) or not--Voltaire writes trashy tell-alls, Europe gets peace, Fritz gets his moderately happy ending, perfect!
. He renovated it heavily, and it's not going to look the same as when Fritz lived there. Now I'm imagining Fritz demanding funds to re-renovate, lol.
Trufax: When SD visited Rheinsberg for the first time, after Heinrich had the renovating done and had moved in, and is very proud to show it off to Mom, she sighs in delight and says: "How beautiful! Your brother has such excellent taste!"
But Heinrich can build his own palace!
Since he'll send the first few years as Regent before young FW2 comes of age, he'll probably stick to the already existing Hohenzollern Berlin and Potsdam residences (minus Sanssouci). (His own Berlin town residence didn't get finished in rl until after the 7 Years War, too; today, it forms the core of the famous Humboldt University, which would have pleased him. ) After that, well, he's not going to move into Sanssouci, though I'm sure he found it beautiful, but that would be carrying the alter ego stuff too far. And not into Wusterhausen (still owned by Fritz as per FW's testament; Heinrich inherited it only after both Fritz and AW were dead and AW's heir on the throne, FW's testament was that detailed), either. Perhaps he decides to reopen Oranienburg (AW's residence that had been closed after AW's death).
The Chevalier gets to shine--oh, man, Heinrich is going to *hear* about that, Retired For Good to Rheinsberg (TM) or not-
No doubt. Fritz is probably going to assume the Chevalier learned about Joseph's very secret location either because of sex with Heinrich (as a man) or with Seydlitz (as a woman). In reality, the Chevalier found out via old school detective work (which place that can be guarded but has no ostensible military value suddenly gets sent top soldiers as well as good food and clothing?) but did admittedly have a one night stand with Heinrich just in case and for the hell of it, so while Heinrich (correctly) denies having said anything, Fritz will never ever believe him.
I like it, I like all of it. Fritz puts up some resistance and only agrees to the exchange once he's assured it meets all of his criteria, the Chevalier gets to shine--oh, man, Heinrich is going to *hear* about that, Retired For Good to Rheinsberg (TM) or not--Voltaire writes trashy tell-alls, Europe gets peace, Fritz gets his moderately happy ending, perfect!
It occurs to me that this could even save Isabella's life. Because though MT tries to protect him from it, Joseph will find out and will be heartbroken but have the first honest conversation with his wife he's ever had. And since he's just been through the experience of being a helpless prisoner (granted, he was never afraid for his life, but there were some uncomfortable moments when one of his guards turned out to have been someone who'd lost family due to the war, with his home village burned down), and does love her, he doesn't react by becoming now a deliberate tyrant to Isabella but by withdrawing from her entirely and agreeing to lead separate lives. (Divorce is out; even in this AU, they're still 18th Century royal Catholics.) Which means no more pregnancies after the first one (that daughter exists) for Isabella, which means a general better health, and even if she does get infected in 1763, she survives it.
Conclusion: Fritz getting captured in the 7 Years War is the reverse of the trope where one event causes a horrible dysfunctional AU - it improves everyone's lives, even that of Fritz! :) (Who now even has the option of eloping with Voltaire back. If he can ever forgive him for coming to his rescue. And if Voltaire can avoid gloating too much, which, err....)
but did admittedly have a one night stand with Heinrich just in case and for the hell of it, so while Heinrich (correctly) denies having said anything, Fritz will never ever believe him.
HAHAHAHAHA omg, I am dying here.
Justice through Voltaire trashy tell-alls is SO awesome, ngl.
but by withdrawing from her entirely and agreeing to lead separate lives.
!!!! You saved Isabella!! okay, now I need this!
Fix-it for all! Fix allllll the things! (Fix All the Things is my favorite type of AU, you will be totally unsurprised to hear.)
And if Voltaire can avoid gloating too much, which, err....
Yeah, I dunno. Maybe after, like, the fifth time or so?
Fix-it for all! Fix allllll the things! (Fix All the Things is my favorite type of AU, you will be totally unsurprised to hear.)
Well, then you will like the fic I'm currently plotting and hoping to write. :D My stated aim is to fix as many things as possible. I've been thinking I need a historical consultant to hash out ideas with...maybe I should join the selenak bandwagon and start doing plot outlines here.
I can't promise I'll recover my ability to write it in time to still be interested in writing it, but hey, just outlining things is fun.
And if Voltaire can avoid gloating too much, which, err....
Yeah, I dunno. Maybe after, like, the fifth time or so?
Yeah, on his own maybe, but the problem is going to be that Fritz won't take this lying down. If we really want to get them together (even temporarily), maybe the prospect of losing Fritz (in whatever sense) moves Voltaire's "can't live with you, can't live without you" pendulum over to "can't live without you," and inspires Voltaire to a declaration of love that softens the gloating? Enough for them to decide to try again? That would be pretty typical behavior for this kind of addictively dysfunctional relationship.
after Heinrich had the renovating done and had moved in, and is very proud to show it off to Mom, she sighs in delight and says: "How beautiful! Your brother has such excellent taste!"
LOLOLOL
It must have been cold there in my shadow To never have sunlight on your face
Even funnier given how much of Heinrich's taste came from Mom via Fritz.
Palaces: makes sense.
Isabella: I'm with cahn--yay, fix ALL the things! (that can reasonably be fixed)
he still remembers that he's been made to submit completely (minus the argument about the predestination doctrine)
Even that. He held out longer than with some other things, but during FW's visit in August 1731, he was on his knees kissing his father's feet and rejecting predestination. (Out loud. He continued expressing belief in it long after his father was dead.)
Do we ever post the Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission in totem? It's in several of the sources (Preuss, Koser, et al.), and it's such a harrowing thing, but a key document, and aside from the quote of FW saying that had Fritz succeeded in his flight attempt, he'd have gone to war with Hannover, would have blamed SD and would have locked Wilhelmine away from "sun and moon" for the rest of her life, and of course the "did you seduce Katte or did Katte seduce you?", I don't think cahn has seen anything from it yet.
Grumbkow wrote this for Seckendorff directly after it happened, on August 15th. Date reminder: this was not only FW's birthday but exactly a year since father and son had last seen each other. Wlhelmine also names August 15th as the day when she learned about the escape attempt at the ball at Monbijou. Language observation: Grumbkow writes in German, and an old fasihioned, more baroque than roccoco German at that. Also, as I've mentioned before, it's fascinating that FW keeps switching between "Du" and the two more formal adresses - the third person singular "er" or the second person "Ihr" when adressing Fritz, sometimes within the same sentence, which tells you something about his volatille mood. Sadly, there's no way I can reproduce this in English.
As soon as his royal majesty turned towards the Crown Prince, the later threw himself at his feet. After his royal majesty had ordered him to rise, his royal majesty said with a very serious face:
"You will know how to recall what has happened one year ago, and how shamefully you have behaved, and what a godless plan you have pursued. As I have had you with me since childhood, and thus I have known you well, I did everything in the world, in good and in bad matters, to make you an honest man, and as I had already suspected your evil intent, I have treated you in the most harsh and rudest manner while we were at the Saxon camp, in the hope that you would reflect, adopt a different behavior, confess your faults to me and ask for forgiveness. But it has all been in vain, and you only became more stubborn. When a young man dirties himself in courting, starts debouched fights and similar actions, one can still forgive this as the faults of youth. But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable. You believed that you would get away with your muleheadedness, but listen, my boy, and if you were 60 or 70 years old, you won't tell me what to do! And if I have managed to live my life so far against everyone, I shan't lack means to bring you to heel.
Haven't I tried honestly with you on all occasions, as when I learned of your debts the last time? Haven't I admonished you in a paternal fashion that you should tell me everything, I would pay it all, as long as you told me the truth; whereupon you told me that other than the already named sum, you were only owing 200 taler more, which I did pay and made my peace with you. Afterwards, it was discovered that you were owing several thousands of Talers more, and since you knew that you would never be able to pay this back, it was if you had stolen it, and that's without considering how the French scum, Montoieu and Ferrant, have screwed you over."
His royal majesty furtherly declared that nothing had hurt him more than the fact he hadn't been trusted by the prince, when his majesty had done all for the aggrandizement of the House of Brandenburg, the army and the finances eventually only for him, for his benefit, if only he showed himself worthy. HIs majesty had to declare that his majesty had done everything to win the friendship of the Crown Prince, but it had all been in vain. At this point, the Crown Prince threw himself full of remorse at his father's feet again. His royal majesty asked him afterwards whether his intention hadn't been to go to England. As he replied in the positive, his royal majesty returned: "Now listen well to the consequences! Your mother would have suffered the greatest misfortune as I would naturally have suspected her of having known all about it; your sister I'd have shut away at a place where she could not have seen either sun or moon for the rest of her life. I'd have gone with my army to Hannover and would have burned down everything, even if I had had to sacrifice my life, land and people in order to do it. See, these would have been the fruit of your thoughtless and godless behaviour. And though I had intended to employ you in various war and civilian offices, how could you show yourself to my officers and other servants after this action? The only thing which can repair this would be if you begged for your blood to be disregarded in order to make up for this mistake."
Whereupon the Crown Prince threw himself at his majesty's feet and begged to be confronted with the harshest tests, and he would suffer through anything to win his majesty's grace and esteem back. Upon which his royal majesty asked: "Did you seduce Katte, or did Katte seduce you?" Whereupon the Crown Prince replied without hesitation: "I seduced him", to which his royal majesty returned: "I am pleased that you finally speak the truth for a change."
His majesty went on to ask how he liked the life in Küstrin? Whether he still had an aversion to Wusterhausen and to wearing the Sterbekittel ?("Death jacket" was what Fritz had called a Prussian uniform, which had enraged FW) It could be that the company of the King wasn't good enough for him; it was true, he, the King, had no French manners, he couldn't produce bonmots in the manner of the petit maitres, which he considered as the greatest scoundrels. He was a German prince and would live and die as a German prince. But now the Prince should say what he had won with his caprices and opiniated heart, as he had hated all which the King had loved, and when he, the King, had prized someone, the Prince had put him down. When an officer had been arrested, he (the prince) had commiserated with him and had taken his part. His true friends and all who had meant well with him, he'd hated and slandered, while he'd caressed those who had flattered him and encouraged him in his evil intentions. Now he saw the fruit of such behavior, for since a long time in Prussia and in Berlin no one had asked about him or cared whether or not he was still of this world, and if not some fellow or the other had come from Küstrin reporting that he was playing with balloons there or wore French hair pieces, no one would know whether he was still alive or dead.
Afterwards, his majesty adressed his religious principles aand demonstrated in the tersest way which horrible consequences came from the absolute decree of naming God as the origin of sin, and that Christ hadn't died for all men. Whereupon the Crown Prince swore up and down that he now entirely agreed with his majesty's Christian and orthodox opinion.
Whereupon his majesty admonished him paternally and tenderly that if godless people spoke against his duties against God and his fatherland in his vicinity, he should fall on his knees and beg Jesus Christ with all his heart to get rid of such evil plans iwth the help of the Holy Spirit, and to lead him on better ways. And if this prayer came from the heart, Jesus, who wanted to save all men, would not leave him unheard; whereupon his royal majesty in the hope of further improvement forgave him the past completely. The Crown Prince heard this with the greatest inner agitation, kissed the King's feet, and shed many tears.
I always forget how utterly awful FW is because my brain keeps thinking, no one could *really* be that awful, right? Right?? And FW is like, no, I really AM that awful.
and as I had already suspected your evil intent, I have treated you in the most harsh and rudest manner while we were at the Saxon camp, in the hope that you would reflect, adopt a different behavior, confess your faults to me and ask for forgiveness.
*facepalm* I mean... that sure does sound like FW, all right. Both awful and MAKING NO SENSE.
But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable.
So by this does he mean Katte? Or what?
Afterwards, it was discovered that you were owing several thousands of Talers more
I don't think I know about this either? (Or at least I don't remember.)
Now he saw the fruit of such behavior,
*headdesk* FW!!
Afterwards, his majesty adressed his religious principles aand demonstrated in the tersest way which horrible consequences came from the absolute decree of naming God as the origin of sin, and that Christ hadn't died for all men. Whereupon the Crown Prince swore up and down that he now entirely agreed with his majesty's Christian and orthodox opinion.
1. Man, FW's dad really did a number on him re: predestination, didn't he. 2. arrrrrrrgh, omg.
I'm not sure whether I'm glad or not to have seen this! No, I'm kidding, I'm glad, of course. But wow that was something else.
*facepalm* I mean... that sure does sound like FW, all right. Both awful and MAKING NO SENSE.
Indeed. "I treated you extra awful in front of everyone so you should confide in me and improve your behaviour!" is...very special FW logic.
But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable.
So by this does he mean Katte? Or what?
At a guess, he means desertion. Katte, even if FW suspects them of having had sex, falls under debauched behavior, just about forgivable as a youthful flaw if properly repentant. But the army is the holiest of institutions, a deserter from it is a coward, hence, unforgivable. (Fast forward to Fritz' reaction when AW asks for permission to return to Berlin: What, you want to flee, while we fight to keep the state for you and your family? You want to set an example to cowards of the army, who may say: We are only asking for what the Prince of Prussia has obtained? Blush to the bottom of your soul the proposals you make to me; you speak of your honor: it lay in leading the army well and not to lose four battaillons, your magazine and your baggage in one stroke. I willl not entrust you another commando again for as long as I live. (...) But you may remain with the army I lead without your honor being impuned by this. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but you must know that I will deny you as my brother and family if you don't follow the demands of honor, the only one fitting for a Crown Prince! Mind you, that was during war time. Which it was not in 1730. But speak of doing a number on people through the generations...)
Fritz' money debts: I don't think we explicitly brought it up, no, but that was indeed a thing, and one of the reasons why FW was so pissed off in Zeithain already. After the flight attempt and Fritz' arrest, he ordered all of Fritz' books that could be found sold anonymously, which covered some of the debts, and paid for the rest. Here you can see where FW's paranoia comes from, for a change, when you recall that his father's Prussia had been bled dry in terms of money to finance the baroque life style of the King and court, and he, FW, had worked 24/7 to create a stable budget and economy again. Being afraid that a son in debts which he refuses to admit to would just turn out to be F1 reborn and reduce FW's life work to non existence was understandable in this context. However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
(The enforced crash course in economics he had Fritz take in Küstrin had the hoped for results in that Fritz, as a monarch, started out if anything even thriftier than FW...except for the arts. See also Barbarina, as Voltaire snarked, getting a higher salary than a Prussian cabinet minister.)
Predestition as a life long FW horror: yup. (F1: Look, he was getting into fights, refused to learn anything but maths and even once threatened his teacher! We had to do something!)
Re: the "no one cares if you life or die, your so called friends have all forgotten you" - as mentioned elsewhere, FW had ordered to tell this to Fritz in the autumn of 1730 already, there with the special addendum that even his mother didn't care. Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
Ahhhh, thank you! Of course, FW, it's all about the army *sigh* ...I remember you quoting that letter to AW, and it was awful even then, but thank you for bringing in the context, now it brings with it a special kind of intergenerational awfulness...
Debts: *nods* Ah, thanks, yeah, that's interesting, that on one hand (for a change, as you say) in some ways it does seem rather reasonable for FW to be upset (if maybe not that upset!)... and on the other hand, kind of not.
I can see being told "no one cares if you live or die," even if you do see through it rationally... could still do a number on your head psychologically, especially since no one is actually around to refute it (except, we hope, Wilhelmine (if the smuggling letters thing is true) -- and Fredersdorf!)
Being afraid that a son in debts which he refuses to admit to would just turn out to be F1 reborn and reduce FW's life work to non existence was understandable in this context.
This is very true.
However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
Agreed. And even the food, which Fritz admittedly splurged on, all his life unless there was good reason (like being at war) not to, feels to me very like overcompensation for not getting enough to eat. FW wants them to eat plain food frugally, fine. FW is actually sending them away from the table hungry, which from a variety of sources seems to have been the case, even allowing for some Wilhelmine exaggeration...you can really mess kids up that way.
If FW had met Fritz halfway instead of insisting on total submission and a complete mirror of himself, I think Fritz's spending wouldn't have gotten that bad, oh, and he would have shown far more interest in the army at a younger age, if it hadn't been being rammed down his throat. FW was in some ways his own worst enemy, and he and Fritz got into a very bad feedback loop.
Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
:/
The one thing that gives me hope was that even at Küstrin, complete strangers were apparently coming together to make his life easier. And he knew about the marital warfare that was his parents' marriage. And he knew even austere army guy Hans Heinrich let his son get an education and play the flute, LIKE EVERY OTHER NOBLE FATHER IN EUROPE. FW was always the outlier in Fritz's life, and he knew that.
I suspect his lifelong distrust in humanity can be accounted for without him having believed his mother and sister had forgotten about him. There's enough other bad stuff going on in his life to account for all sorts of psychological issues. (When I'm making up stories in my head, it generally takes me about two consecutive rounds of reincarnation to plausibly get even half of them under control, lol.)
AHAHAHA this is awesome, especially Oh, I've got a monument at Rheinsberg in mind. It may not be what you're expecting.
And because Fritz has never been the world's greatest listener once he gets an idea into his head, they never have the chance to explain that it's an unofficial prisoner exchange.
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timeasmymeasure
Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-08 07:21 pm (UTC)I replied: "I wish I could find the source, and I will keep an eye out because I feel like it's a letter and not just a novel, I mean biography, but I have a memory of Fritz saying something like, 'If I'm captured, you're not to make any concessions to get me back; the welfare of the state comes first.'"
Well, I found it! Asprey cites the letter, and though he doesn't give me a page number or a date or anything (other than shortly before Mollwitz), he narrowed it down enough that I was able to track it down in the Political Correspondence.
Translation mine:
By the way, I have twice escaped the designs of the Austrian hussars [viz, to capture him]. If I suffer the misfortune of being taken alive, I absolutely order you, and you will answer for it with your head, that in my absence you will not respect my orders, that you will serve as counselor to my brother, and that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom. On the contrary, I wish and I order that, in this event, the state act even more vigorously than ever.
If I'm killed, I want my body burned and placed in an urn at Rheinsberg [this is 1741, several years before Sanssouci is built]. Knobelsdorff [his architect] should in this case make a monument like that of Horace at Tusculum.
Either Fritz's memory or mine is faulty here: help me out,
But I am drawing a blank on what specific monument Fritz may be thinking of here.
Anyway! It's quite possible that if there's a prisoner exchange, Fritz is torn between wanting to go free and wanting the state to demand major concessions in return for Joseph.
It's also interesting that there's the "you will not follow any orders I give in captivity" line in there. Clearly he believes that he would cave under pressure and sign orders that as a free man he wouldn't want followed, no matter what the cost to him. His experience caving in Küstrin might be informing this decision. At any rate, it's very psychologically revealing.
I still think that ~1760!Fritz, used to being in command and with 100% control issues, most likely jumps at the chance to get out of prison and back into the saddle, especially if it's a prisoner exchange instead of territorial concessions--long precedent for honorable exchanges of prisoners in warfare. But we at least have this passage to point to if you want him to be torn.
Oh, here's an idea. Maybe Fritz can't imagine that they have Joseph, so when the Austrians are willingly if unofficially letting him go, he imagines that the only reason they would do that is if they got major concessions out of Prussia. So he starts yelling like a maniac at his would-be rescuers, ordering them to go away and hang onto Silesia, or at least pre-1740 Prussia, at all costs, and he'll commit suicide if that's what it takes. And because Fritz has never been the world's greatest listener once he gets an idea into his head, they never have the chance to explain that it's an unofficial prisoner exchange.
So the Prussian officers shrug and decide, "Okay, the king wants us to trade Joseph for Silesia. Makes sense, if you're an amazing Roman Stoic monarch who puts the state first. Heinrich, you'd better build a hell of a monument to commemorate our king's glorious sacrifice!"
Heinrich: Oh, I've got a monument at Rheinsberg in mind. It may not be what you're expecting.
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 06:32 am (UTC)Either Fritz's memory or mine is faulty here
It's Fritz. Doesn't surprise me, since even decades later, Lucchesini remarks on the fact that Fritz' Horace appreciation is limited by the fact he knowly knows the odes via French translation. And it's in the odes that Horace gives enough descriptions of his villa to make people wonder where the place was from the Renaissance onwards and eventually succeed; finding it was a well documented effort since Renaissance times. In Epistles 1.10) that his villa was next to the sanctuary of the Sabine goddess, Vacuna. Lucas Holstenius (a mid-17th century geographer and a librarian at the Vatican Library) identified the sanctuary with the temple of the goddess Victory mentioned in the inscription, and he showed that the Romans associated the Sabine deity with their goddess Victoria. At a guess, this Victory goddess bit is why young King Fritz wants a Horace like villa.
Now, as you say, Cicero''s Villa is in Tusculum. Horace's is not, and was never believed to be - he gives enough markers to where it was for people to eventually find it, and Tusculum is not in (former) Sabine territory. So I'm thinking Fritz simply confused his ancient Roman villas, aided by the fact he's never been in Italy and Italian geography probably isn't high on his list of priorities early in the Silesian wars.
It's also interesting that there's the "you will not follow any orders I give in captivity" line in there. Clearly he believes that he would cave under pressure and sign orders that as a free man he wouldn't want followed, no matter what the cost to him. His experience caving in Küstrin might be informing this decision. At any rate, it's very psychologically revealing.
Oh absolutely. Küstrin is only a decade away, he hasn't been a monarch with absolute power for long, he still remembers that he's been made to submit completely (minus the argument about the predestination doctrine). (And then continue to submit in more minor ways by the very fact he had to keep on Dad's good side for the next ten years.)
long precedent for honorable exchanges of prisoners in warfare.
Not to mention that Fritz himself had Seckendorff kidnapped for the very purpose of exchanging him in just such a manner. I like the idea that a combination of inherent paranoia and a misunderstanding causing him to respond badly and thereby ruining the prisoner exchange, though.
Does Heinrich exchange Joseph for Silesia? The problem here is that unlike an exchange of prisoners, which can happen at once to both party's satisfaction, an exchange of person versus territory under duress can be nullified easily after the fact. I mean: even in Silesia 1, British advice to MT was to concede to Fritz what he wants to have for now and later when she's in a better possession point out she only did so under duress and her agreement is not worth anything. What with Fritz being the armed highwayman here. Which is sort of what she did and hence Silesia 2. So if I were Heinrich, I'd want something more than yet another "okay, you can have Silesia" which could easily be broken as soon as Joseph is back on Austrian soil.
Hmm. MT additionally offers to have the Reichstag okay a change in the order of succession for Prussia? No, not to make Heinrich King, to depose Frit and make young FW King now and acknowledge him as such through all the princes on Austria's side. This means Heinrich doesn't look like a self interested ursurper, and hey, Fritz always said he was planning to retire in favour of AW or AW's heirs anyway after the war.
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 03:04 pm (UTC)Plus confusing Quintus Icilius (not a Roman name as far as I know) with Quintus Caecilius, and as you pointed out, Pliny with Ovid (I think you're right about that, and good catch). Thank you for expanding on the Italian archaeology; I remembered Horace's villa being identifiable because he'd provided enough description to track it down, but none of the other detail.
Not to mention that Fritz himself had Seckendorff kidnapped for the very purpose of exchanging him in just such a manner.
I was thinking of exactly this, which is why I tried to come up with a reason for him to refuse something other than an explicit prisoner exchange.
Does Heinrich exchange Joseph for Silesia?
Now, that's a whoooole different kettle of fish. I like your idea about changing the succession! Fritz's "but I'm going to retire, I swear!" comes back to bite him. :P
Does Heinrich give him Rheinsberg back? The other-self symmetry of, "Here, I have a country to run" would be amaaaazing.
Also, given Fritz's memories of a happier time at Rheinsberg, and the fact that he talked about retiring so often because he *knew* that being king wasn't making him happy, even if he never could shake his addiction to control (and btw it behaves exactly like an addiction)...maybe after some years of hating and resenting the path that led him back here, he discovers that he is actually happier where he is, brushing up on his Romans and hanging out with friends. And of course he rewrites history so that it was his idea all along--Henri de Catt can testify, after all!--because everything that works out has to be *Fritz's* idea.
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 05:31 pm (UTC)If we don't want to make Fritz too stubborn, he can even agree to the prisoner's exchange, but then before it can happen, in the eleventh hour the Chevalier rescues Joseph and Fritz is back in Austrian captivity. Though MT mmight remember that offer of Young King FW/Regent Heinrich + Retired For Good To Rheinsberg Fritz = Peace once Voltaire's campaign really takes off and she decides this whole Fritz on trial thing is just more trouble than it's worth, still a bad precedent, and did that scoundrel Voltaire really just threaten to publish a trashy tell all about her court, co-starring beloved husband's mistresses (painful, but has happened once or twice before) and beloved daughter-in-law carrying on with beloved daughter (no way!)? (Seydlitz picked something up from Isabella's reaction and told Voltaire.)
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 09:04 pm (UTC)omg, THIS pamphlet I want to see. :P
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 09:38 pm (UTC)True. He renovated it heavily, and it's not going to look the same as when Fritz lived there. Now I'm imagining Fritz demanding funds to re-renovate, lol. But Heinrich can build his own palace! There's all these funds for the Neues Palais that won't be needed any more. (
retirement could turn out to be the best thing ever to hoppen to Fritz at this point, finally freeing him from his self chosen galley
But first he has to have the initial angry-letter-writing campaign about how everything that happened was extremely everyone else's fault. :P But when he's not writing letters and going crazy over not being in control, he's spending his time doing the things he actually wants to do in life, and eventually the momentum builds up to where it's the best thing for him.
If we don't want to make Fritz too stubborn, he can even agree to the prisoner's exchange, but then before it can happen, in the eleventh hour the Chevalier rescues Joseph and Fritz is back in Austrian captivity.
I like this, and I like it even more if we can work in some resistance from Fritz along the lines of "You're not giving away anything important, right? We're still fighting this war? Oh, it's a prisoner exchange. Okay. Cool. And the prisoner is of sufficiently high rank that I'm not being insulted? Just making sure."
did that scoundrel Voltaire really just threaten to publish a trashy tell all about her court, co-starring beloved husband's mistresses (painful, but has happened once or twice before) and beloved daughter-in-law carrying on with beloved daughter (no way!)? (Seydlitz picked something up from Isabella's reaction and told Voltaire.)
Justice through trashy tell-alls! White Knight to the rescue, Voltaire-style. OMG, this is great. Do it!
I like it, I like all of it. Fritz puts up some resistance and only agrees to the exchange once he's assured it meets all of his criteria, the Chevalier gets to shine--oh, man, Heinrich is going to *hear* about that, Retired For Good to Rheinsberg (TM) or not--Voltaire writes trashy tell-alls, Europe gets peace, Fritz gets his moderately happy ending, perfect!
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-10 06:16 am (UTC)Trufax: When SD visited Rheinsberg for the first time, after Heinrich had the renovating done and had moved in, and is very proud to show it off to Mom, she sighs in delight and says: "How beautiful! Your brother has such excellent taste!"
But Heinrich can build his own palace!
Since he'll send the first few years as Regent before young FW2 comes of age, he'll probably stick to the already existing Hohenzollern Berlin and Potsdam residences (minus Sanssouci). (His own Berlin town residence didn't get finished in rl until after the 7 Years War, too; today, it forms the core of the famous Humboldt University, which would have pleased him. ) After that, well, he's not going to move into Sanssouci, though I'm sure he found it beautiful, but that would be carrying the alter ego stuff too far. And not into Wusterhausen (still owned by Fritz as per FW's testament; Heinrich inherited it only after both Fritz and AW were dead and AW's heir on the throne, FW's testament was that detailed), either. Perhaps he decides to reopen Oranienburg (AW's residence that had been closed after AW's death).
The Chevalier gets to shine--oh, man, Heinrich is going to *hear* about that, Retired For Good to Rheinsberg (TM) or not-
No doubt. Fritz is probably going to assume the Chevalier learned about Joseph's very secret location either because of sex with Heinrich (as a man) or with Seydlitz (as a woman). In reality, the Chevalier found out via old school detective work (which place that can be guarded but has no ostensible military value suddenly gets sent top soldiers as well as good food and clothing?) but did admittedly have a one night stand with Heinrich just in case and for the hell of it, so while Heinrich (correctly) denies having said anything, Fritz will never ever believe him.
I like it, I like all of it. Fritz puts up some resistance and only agrees to the exchange once he's assured it meets all of his criteria, the Chevalier gets to shine--oh, man, Heinrich is going to *hear* about that, Retired For Good to Rheinsberg (TM) or not--Voltaire writes trashy tell-alls, Europe gets peace, Fritz gets his moderately happy ending, perfect!
It occurs to me that this could even save Isabella's life. Because though MT tries to protect him from it, Joseph will find out and will be heartbroken but have the first honest conversation with his wife he's ever had. And since he's just been through the experience of being a helpless prisoner (granted, he was never afraid for his life, but there were some uncomfortable moments when one of his guards turned out to have been someone who'd lost family due to the war, with his home village burned down), and does love her, he doesn't react by becoming now a deliberate tyrant to Isabella but by withdrawing from her entirely and agreeing to lead separate lives. (Divorce is out; even in this AU, they're still 18th Century royal Catholics.) Which means no more pregnancies after the first one (that daughter exists) for Isabella, which means a general better health, and even if she does get infected in 1763, she survives it.
Conclusion: Fritz getting captured in the 7 Years War is the reverse of the trope where one event causes a horrible dysfunctional AU - it improves everyone's lives, even that of Fritz! :) (Who now even has the option of eloping with Voltaire back. If he can ever forgive him for coming to his rescue. And if Voltaire can avoid gloating too much, which, err....)
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-11 09:03 pm (UTC)HAHAHAHAHA omg, I am dying here.
Justice through Voltaire trashy tell-alls is SO awesome, ngl.
but by withdrawing from her entirely and agreeing to lead separate lives.
!!!! You saved Isabella!! okay, now I need this!
Fix-it for all! Fix allllll the things! (Fix All the Things is my favorite type of AU, you will be totally unsurprised to hear.)
And if Voltaire can avoid gloating too much, which, err....
Yeah, I dunno. Maybe after, like, the fifth time or so?
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-11 09:59 pm (UTC)Well, then you will like the fic I'm currently plotting and hoping to write. :D My stated aim is to fix as many things as possible. I've been thinking I need a historical consultant to hash out ideas with...maybe I should join the
I can't promise I'll recover my ability to write it in time to still be interested in writing it, but hey, just outlining things is fun.
And if Voltaire can avoid gloating too much, which, err....
Yeah, I dunno. Maybe after, like, the fifth time or so?
Yeah, on his own maybe, but the problem is going to be that Fritz won't take this lying down. If we really want to get them together (even temporarily), maybe the prospect of losing Fritz (in whatever sense) moves Voltaire's "can't live with you, can't live without you" pendulum over to "can't live without you," and inspires Voltaire to a declaration of love that softens the gloating? Enough for them to decide to try again? That would be pretty typical behavior for this kind of addictively dysfunctional relationship.
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-11 09:40 pm (UTC)LOLOLOL
It must have been cold there in my shadow
To never have sunlight on your face
Even funnier given how much of Heinrich's taste came from Mom via Fritz.
Palaces: makes sense.
Isabella: I'm with
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 10:05 pm (UTC)Even that. He held out longer than with some other things, but during FW's visit in August 1731, he was on his knees kissing his father's feet and rejecting predestination. (Out loud. He continued expressing belief in it long after his father was dead.)
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-10 05:49 am (UTC)Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-11 09:04 pm (UTC)Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-13 06:33 pm (UTC)As soon as his royal majesty turned towards the Crown Prince, the later threw himself at his feet. After his royal majesty had ordered him to rise, his royal majesty said with a very serious face:
"You will know how to recall what has happened one year ago, and how shamefully you have behaved, and what a godless plan you have pursued. As I have had you with me since childhood, and thus I have known you well, I did everything in the world, in good and in bad matters, to make you an honest man, and as I had already suspected your evil intent, I have treated you in the most harsh and rudest manner while we were at the Saxon camp, in the hope that you would reflect, adopt a different behavior, confess your faults to me and ask for forgiveness. But it has all been in vain, and you only became more stubborn. When a young man dirties himself in courting, starts debouched fights and similar actions, one can still forgive this as the faults of youth. But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable. You believed that you would get away with your muleheadedness, but listen, my boy, and if you were 60 or 70 years old, you won't tell me what to do! And if I have managed to live my life so far against everyone, I shan't lack means to bring you to heel.
Haven't I tried honestly with you on all occasions, as when I learned of your debts the last time? Haven't I admonished you in a paternal fashion that you should tell me everything, I would pay it all, as long as you told me the truth; whereupon you told me that other than the already named sum, you were only owing 200 taler more, which I did pay and made my peace with you. Afterwards, it was discovered that you were owing several thousands of Talers more, and since you knew that you would never be able to pay this back, it was if you had stolen it, and that's without considering how the French scum, Montoieu and Ferrant, have screwed you over."
His royal majesty furtherly declared that nothing had hurt him more than the fact he hadn't been trusted by the prince, when his majesty had done all for the aggrandizement of the House of Brandenburg, the army and the finances eventually only for him, for his benefit, if only he showed himself worthy. HIs majesty had to declare that his majesty had done everything to win the friendship of the Crown Prince, but it had all been in vain. At this point, the Crown Prince threw himself full of remorse at his father's feet again. His royal majesty asked him afterwards whether his intention hadn't been to go to England. As he replied in the positive, his royal majesty returned: "Now listen well to the consequences! Your mother would have suffered the greatest misfortune as I would naturally have suspected her of having known all about it; your sister I'd have shut away at a place where she could not have seen either sun or moon for the rest of her life. I'd have gone with my army to Hannover and would have burned down everything, even if I had had to sacrifice my life, land and people in order to do it. See, these would have been the fruit of your thoughtless and godless behaviour. And though I had intended to employ you in various war and civilian offices, how could you show yourself to my officers and other servants after this action? The only thing which can repair this would be if you begged for your blood to be disregarded in order to make up for this mistake."
Whereupon the Crown Prince threw himself at his majesty's feet and begged to be confronted with the harshest tests, and he would suffer through anything to win his majesty's grace and esteem back. Upon which his royal majesty asked: "Did you seduce Katte, or did Katte seduce you?" Whereupon the Crown Prince replied without hesitation: "I seduced him", to which his royal majesty returned: "I am pleased that you finally speak the truth for a change."
His majesty went on to ask how he liked the life in Küstrin? Whether he still had an aversion to Wusterhausen and to wearing the Sterbekittel ?("Death jacket" was what Fritz had called a Prussian uniform, which had enraged FW) It could be that the company of the King wasn't good enough for him; it was true, he, the King, had no French manners, he couldn't produce bonmots in the manner of the petit maitres, which he considered as the greatest scoundrels. He was a German prince and would live and die as a German prince. But now the Prince should say what he had won with his caprices and opiniated heart, as he had hated all which the King had loved, and when he, the King, had prized someone, the Prince had put him down. When an officer had been arrested, he (the prince) had commiserated with him and had taken his part. His true friends and all who had meant well with him, he'd hated and slandered, while he'd caressed those who had flattered him and encouraged him in his evil intentions. Now he saw the fruit of such behavior, for since a long time in Prussia and in Berlin no one had asked about him or cared whether or not he was still of this world, and if not some fellow or the other had come from Küstrin reporting that he was playing with balloons there or wore French hair pieces, no one would know whether he was still alive or dead.
Afterwards, his majesty adressed his religious principles aand demonstrated in the tersest way which horrible consequences came from the absolute decree of naming God as the origin of sin, and that Christ hadn't died for all men. Whereupon the Crown Prince swore up and down that he now entirely agreed with his majesty's Christian and orthodox opinion.
Whereupon his majesty admonished him paternally and tenderly that if godless people spoke against his duties against God and his fatherland in his vicinity, he should fall on his knees and beg Jesus Christ with all his heart to get rid of such evil plans iwth the help of the Holy Spirit, and to lead him on better ways. And if this prayer came from the heart, Jesus, who wanted to save all men, would not leave him unheard; whereupon his royal majesty in the hope of further improvement forgave him the past completely. The Crown Prince heard this with the greatest inner agitation, kissed the King's feet, and shed many tears.
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-14 04:52 am (UTC)I always forget how utterly awful FW is because my brain keeps thinking, no one could *really* be that awful, right? Right?? And FW is like, no, I really AM that awful.
and as I had already suspected your evil intent, I have treated you in the most harsh and rudest manner while we were at the Saxon camp, in the hope that you would reflect, adopt a different behavior, confess your faults to me and ask for forgiveness.
*facepalm* I mean... that sure does sound like FW, all right. Both awful and MAKING NO SENSE.
But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable.
So by this does he mean Katte? Or what?
Afterwards, it was discovered that you were owing several thousands of Talers more
I don't think I know about this either? (Or at least I don't remember.)
Now he saw the fruit of such behavior,
*headdesk* FW!!
Afterwards, his majesty adressed his religious principles aand demonstrated in the tersest way which horrible consequences came from the absolute decree of naming God as the origin of sin, and that Christ hadn't died for all men. Whereupon the Crown Prince swore up and down that he now entirely agreed with his majesty's Christian and orthodox opinion.
1. Man, FW's dad really did a number on him re: predestination, didn't he.
2. arrrrrrrgh, omg.
I'm not sure whether I'm glad or not to have seen this! No, I'm kidding, I'm glad, of course. But wow that was something else.
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-14 06:15 am (UTC)*facepalm* I mean... that sure does sound like FW, all right. Both awful and MAKING NO SENSE.
Indeed. "I treated you extra awful in front of everyone so you should confide in me and improve your behaviour!" is...very special FW logic.
But intentionally behave cowardly and do similar disgusting things, that is unforgivable.
So by this does he mean Katte? Or what?
At a guess, he means desertion. Katte, even if FW suspects them of having had sex, falls under debauched behavior, just about forgivable as a youthful flaw if properly repentant. But the army is the holiest of institutions, a deserter from it is a coward, hence, unforgivable. (Fast forward to Fritz' reaction when AW asks for permission to return to Berlin: What, you want to flee, while we fight to keep the state for you and your family? You want to set an example to cowards of the army, who may say: We are only asking for what the Prince of Prussia has obtained? Blush to the bottom of your soul the proposals you make to me; you speak of your honor: it lay in leading the army well and not to lose four battaillons, your magazine and your baggage in one stroke. I willl not entrust you another commando again for as long as I live. (...) But you may remain with the army I lead without your honor being impuned by this. You can, of course, do whatever you want, but you must know that I will deny you as my brother and family if you don't follow the demands of honor, the only one fitting for a Crown Prince! Mind you, that was during war time. Which it was not in 1730. But speak of doing a number on people through the generations...)
Fritz' money debts: I don't think we explicitly brought it up, no, but that was indeed a thing, and one of the reasons why FW was so pissed off in Zeithain already. After the flight attempt and Fritz' arrest, he ordered all of Fritz' books that could be found sold anonymously, which covered some of the debts, and paid for the rest. Here you can see where FW's paranoia comes from, for a change, when you recall that his father's Prussia had been bled dry in terms of money to finance the baroque life style of the King and court, and he, FW, had worked 24/7 to create a stable budget and economy again. Being afraid that a son in debts which he refuses to admit to would just turn out to be F1 reborn and reduce FW's life work to non existence was understandable in this context. However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
(The enforced crash course in economics he had Fritz take in Küstrin had the hoped for results in that Fritz, as a monarch, started out if anything even thriftier than FW...except for the arts. See also Barbarina, as Voltaire snarked, getting a higher salary than a Prussian cabinet minister.)
Predestition as a life long FW horror: yup. (F1: Look, he was getting into fights, refused to learn anything but maths and even once threatened his teacher! We had to do something!)
Re: the "no one cares if you life or die, your so called friends have all forgotten you" - as mentioned elsewhere, FW had ordered to tell this to Fritz in the autumn of 1730 already, there with the special addendum that even his mother didn't care. Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-15 07:05 pm (UTC)Debts: *nods* Ah, thanks, yeah, that's interesting, that on one hand (for a change, as you say) in some ways it does seem rather reasonable for FW to be upset (if maybe not that upset!)... and on the other hand, kind of not.
I can see being told "no one cares if you live or die," even if you do see through it rationally... could still do a number on your head psychologically, especially since no one is actually around to refute it (except, we hope, Wilhelmine (if the smuggling letters thing is true) -- and Fredersdorf!)
Re: Grumbkow-Seckendorff protocol of the August 1731 submission
Date: 2020-03-20 11:05 pm (UTC)This is very true.
However, what FW was incapable of acknowledging was that some of what Fritz had wanted the money for - education, the arts, books - were hardly something any other father, noble or citizen, would have begrudged their child, and that by his own behavior he had made it impossible for his son to trust him.
Agreed. And even the food, which Fritz admittedly splurged on, all his life unless there was good reason (like being at war) not to, feels to me very like overcompensation for not getting enough to eat. FW wants them to eat plain food frugally, fine. FW is actually sending them away from the table hungry, which from a variety of sources seems to have been the case, even allowing for some Wilhelmine exaggeration...you can really mess kids up that way.
If FW had met Fritz halfway instead of insisting on total submission and a complete mirror of himself, I think Fritz's spending wouldn't have gotten that bad, oh, and he would have shown far more interest in the army at a younger age, if it hadn't been being rammed down his throat. FW was in some ways his own worst enemy, and he and Fritz got into a very bad feedback loop.
Now while I'm pretty sure Fritz saw through it in the autumn of 1730, I hope he stll saw through it in the summer of 1731, but I'm not entirely sure. Because life long distrust in humanity ensued. And when he did let people in, he micromanaged them.
:/
The one thing that gives me hope was that even at Küstrin, complete strangers were apparently coming together to make his life easier. And he knew about the marital warfare that was his parents' marriage. And he knew even austere army guy Hans Heinrich let his son get an education and play the flute, LIKE EVERY OTHER NOBLE FATHER IN EUROPE. FW was always the outlier in Fritz's life, and he knew that.
I suspect his lifelong distrust in humanity can be accounted for without him having believed his mother and sister had forgotten about him. There's enough other bad stuff going on in his life to account for all sorts of psychological issues. (When I'm making up stories in my head, it generally takes me about two consecutive rounds of reincarnation to plausibly get even half of them under control, lol.)
Re: Wanted: Alive or dead
Date: 2020-03-09 09:02 pm (UTC)And because Fritz has never been the world's greatest listener once he gets an idea into his head, they never have the chance to explain that it's an unofficial prisoner exchange.
omg this is so Fritz though