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cahnAnd in this post:
-luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!
-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, andselenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!
-mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War
(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
-
luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and
selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!-
mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-02 07:42 pm (UTC)It really was! Only up to a point, though; only 4 years earlier, Augustus had had the competition for the Polish throne kidnapped and locked up: the two Sobieski brothers. This was one reason Charles's escapade made everyone nervous.
Genealogical note: the kidnapped princes were two of the sons of John III Sobieski, king of Poland famous for freeing Vienna from the Turks in 1683, and one of these two sons, James Sobieski, was the father of BPC's mother, Maria Clementina Sobieska.
That was in 1704, when Charles XII's supporters in Poland had declared that Augustus was no longer king, and they were about to vote on a successor. Since the Sobieskis were locked up, Stanislas got elected. (At least one of my sources says that Stanislas agreed in writing that he would be king only until James Sobieski was freed. Also that after Poltava, when Charles was in Turkey and Augustus was de facto king again, Stanislas told Charles that it was okay, that he didn't really need to be king of Poland, let it go...and Charles, true to form, was like, "No, dammit! I made you king, and this war does not end until you are king! That Augustus is a no-good, treaty-breaking, invading-without-declaration-of-war, rascal! Though I admit he's great to hang out with in person."
Everyone else, tired of the war: *sigh*)
By 1708, when Charles made his incognito visit, Augustus had been defeated and had signed his abdication and recognition of Stanislas, and Saxony had been occupied by the Swedes.
Well, since Dresden was and now again is very gorgeous indeed, see pic spam at Rheinsberg, at least Charles did see some nice sights.
Indeed! To quote from Massie:
Charles, accompanied by only seven Swedish officers, rode incognito into Dresden to spend an afternoon with his former enemy, the Elector Augustus. Charles’ visit was so sudden that he found the Elector still in his dressing gown. The two monarchs embraced, Augustus put on a coat, and together they went for an afternoon ride along the Elbe. It was a pleasant meeting between the two first cousins and Charles bore no personal ill-will against the man who had attacked him six years before and whose dethroning he had pursued so relentlessly for so many years across the plains of Poland. Now that Augustus was punished, Charles’ attitude toward him was sunny. At the end of their ride, Charles inspected the famous Green Vault collection that had so fascinated Peter nine years before, and visited his aunt, Augustus’ mother, the Dowager Electress of Saxony. It was the last time the King would see either his aunt or his cousin.* Despite these pleasantries, the Swedes around Charles worried about the King’s reckless decision to ride into the capital of a former enemy accompanied by only seven men. Charles later put their fears aside, smiling and saying, “There was no danger. The army was on the march.”
(Somehow I doubt that Peter the Great would have let him walk around in Moscow.)
I don't know. Given how Peter went out of his way to treat Charles with exaggerated respect, including any prisoners of war connected to him, and to lament that he never got to meet Charles so he could demonstrate his faithful adherence to the royal bro code...he might have.
Irresistible AU: Fritz on an "incognito" sightseeing trip to Vienna. MT's reaction. Discuss. :P
(St. Petersburg wasn't yet an option to sight see in.)
For
The city was still built largely of wood, and it caught on fire regularly from the first days of its building, through the two fires that nearly killed Suhm, up through Catherine the Great's day at least, and probably beyond. (Not helped by the lack of adequate fire departments in the 18th century.)
Surprise meetings
Date: 2021-11-03 07:08 am (UTC)Irresistible AU: Fritz on an "incognito" sightseeing trip to Vienna. MT's reaction. Discuss. :P
Oh lord. At which point of their lives? Because I think the reaction might vary depending on when this takes place in their lives. (What she actually does, I mean. The emotional reaction would be pretty much identical throughout, unless he visits before her father's death.)
Silesia 1 "I don't care what you say, Franzl and advisors, the bastard gets arrested. I'm not a bro."
Between wars: "So the Margrave of Brandenburg is curious to see Vienna? Fine. Any beggars throwing dung at him shall be rewarded with a life time pension. Otherwise we ignore him. Pretend he doesn't exist."
(FS: But Mitz, maybe if you two meet...
MT: No.
FS: Didn't you want to present that all female riding in the world's most famous riding school? Maybe you should do that while he's there, then you can be sure no one will pay him any attention.
MT: You're not planning to secretly give him the tip to be there, do you?
FS: Of course not.)
Silesia 2: Tell the Margrave of Brandenburg, politely, we do not welcome spies. He may attend my husband's coronation in Frankfurt and visit that city instead, though.
Peacetime both between Silesia 2 and the 7 Years War, and after, if she learns of his intention soon enough: "Well, if the King must inflict his presence on us, he should bring my cousin his wife along. I shall sent an escort bringing her here, so they can be together during every moment of his visit to Vienna. What? I believe in the encouragement of marital harmony!"
If it's truly a surprise and she can't do that: "No, Joseph, I'm not going to let you meet him alone. I'm going for a version of Selena's No.4 fictional meeting between us, since I know otherwise you'll meet him behind my back anyway. Also, the beggars of Vienna are still offered a pension in the event of a certain scenario."
Re: Surprise meetings
Date: 2021-11-03 09:53 pm (UTC)What a great way of putting it. It is indeed symbolic.
It's not called "the Venice of the North" for nothing.
Thank you for reminding me that I wanted to tell
MT: I laughed so hard! I knew I wanted you to cover this AU. :D This is joining the Rheinsberg ficlets.
He may attend my husband's coronation in Frankfurt and visit that city instead, though.
Hahaha, this reminds me of the reaction of some of her advisors to the proposal of compromising with Fritz on Silesia:
The Elector of Brandenburg's function in the Empire, he pointed out, was to hold the emperor's silver wash basin, not to invade his domains.
Reported by Asprey.
The whole thing is so hilarious, I must refrain from quoting ALL of it!
Re: Surprise meetings
Date: 2021-11-05 04:42 am (UTC)I'm not a bro."
Hee, and this is one of the reasons I love you, MT :D
MT: You're not planning to secretly give him the tip to be there, do you?
FS: Of course not.)
LOL!
"Well, if the King must inflict his presence on us, he should bring my cousin his wife along. I shall sent an escort bringing her here, so they can be together during every moment of his visit to Vienna. What? I believe in the encouragement of marital harmony!"
I laughed really hard LOLOLOLOL
Also, the beggars of Vienna are still offered a pension in the event of a certain scenario."
Heeeee! This was hilaaaarious :D
Re: Surprise meetings
Date: 2021-11-05 07:07 pm (UTC)Wait, did she actually call him that or is it something you made up along the lines of the Queen of Hungary? Either way, this was a very amusing outline. :D
Also, this
Any beggars throwing dung at him shall be rewarded with a life time pension.
reminds me: Apparently, when Fritz visited Aachen in 1742, with 16-year-old Heinrich as company and right after Silesia 1, there were some tumultuous scenes happening in front of his quarters - enough so that the mayor had to issue an edict to admonish the local youths and students to stop their "impertinent yelling, running to and fro, and stone-throwing". Since Fritz mentions in a letter to Podewils that he was surprised by the local anti-France sentiments, I guess that, plus the abundance of catholicism in Aachen, might have been enough for some antipathy? (Also, Voltaire was living next door to Fritz for a week then, which might have attracted some trouble as well? Though he isn't mentioned in the edict.)
Re: Surprise meetings
Date: 2021-11-06 07:13 am (UTC)Also, Voltaire was living next door to Fritz for a week then, which might have attracted some trouble as well? Though he isn't mentioned in the edict.
Trouble in Voltaire's vicinity and it's not about Voltaire? Quoi? :) That is interesting, that the Aachen students were anti him instead of cheering him. Mind you, in addition to the Catholic-ness of good old Aix-La-Chappelle, MT was at this point making gains in the propaganda war, going from ridiculed to praised in many a pamphlet, while Fritz was on the one hand admired for audaciously pulling his landgrab off but otoh having dumped his allies the moment he had what he wanted had proven himself as unreliable, so there was that.
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-04 10:05 pm (UTC)As noted, Charles found it impossible to deliver a final defeat to Augustus as long as Augustus could draw on his power center of Saxony. Charles really really wanted to invade Saxony. But the British and Dutch wouldn't let him.
Now why are the British and Dutch (hence forth the Maritime Powers, as they're usually called in my reading) such an obstacle?
Well, the War of the Spanish Succession is going on. The Maritime Powers are allied with the current Holy Roman Emperor, Joseph I (MT's dad's older brother). He is trying to put MT's dad, future Charles VI, on the throne of Spain. If Charles attacks Saxony, the Austrians will be forced to defend it. Any resources they spend defending Saxony are resources they can't spend fighting Louis XIV. The Maritime Powers really, really want Louis XIV's butt kicked.
Why doesn't Charles decide he can take on the Austrians and the Maritime Powers on top of everyone else? Aside from the fact that he's not *that* much of an idiot, he needs the Maritime Powers for one specific thing.
What one specific thing? Our old friend Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp.
Remember that back at the beginning of the war, Denmark, one of the first three allies to gang up on Sweden and decide to partition its empire, made the first move by occupying Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. And remember that Charles knocked Denmark out of the war in a few weeks. Part of this was his coolness, but a big part was that the Maritime Powers were the guarantors of the treaty that Denmark had violated. So they showed up with a navy to help Charles out, and said that if Denmark tried that again, they'd find themselves facing the British and Dutch navies again. This is that "Dutch Republic (1700), England (1700), Scotland (1700), Ireland (1700)" in the chart of "who's who" I gave at the top of the thread. William III and everywhere he was leader of through personal union intervened just long enough to help keep the peace in Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp, then went back to planning their own war.
So now it's 1701-1706, and if Charles invades Saxony, Leopold has to divert troops from the war in which he's allied to the Maritime Powers against Louis, the Maritime Powers get mad, Denmark invades Schleswig-Holstein again, and Charles is up one enemy and down one ally in this war (plus the new enemies of Austria, and Maritime Powers). This is why I said you have to know the War of the Spanish Succession if you want to understand the Great Northern War. There will be more overlap later.
As noted, it's not until 1706, after Marlborough and Eugene have won some striking victories, that everyone's okay with Charles attacking Saxony. In fact, Louis was like, "You should come join me! Fight Marlborough and Eugene! We can divide up Germany together!"
Charles: "I have my priorities, sir. And I am staying neutral in your war. Maritime Powers, I will refrain from invading Saxony if you can get Augustus to abdicate."
Maritime Powers: *try*
Maritime Powers: *fail*
So Charles marches through Silesia, where he is hailed as a liberator by the Protestants. He tells Emperor Joseph that he'd better stop oppressing the Protestants and had better guarantee their religious liberties. Joseph does so.
In the words of Massie,
By a threat to march against Vienna, Charles did win for the Silesians the right to reopen their Lutheran churches; indeed, the Emperor Joseph said that he was lucky that the King of Sweden had not demanded that he become a Lutheran himself.
Mildred: That sounds as implausible as it is hilarious. Even leaving religious commitment aside, I would hope the Holy Roman Emperor would have more pride than that! Primary sources or it didn't happen.
One of Mildred's later, more reliable books: "According to Voltaire, Joseph said..."
Mildred: OH. That explains why it's hilarious and snarky and implausible! That is such a vintage Voltaire dig against a Catholic monarch on behalf of Voltaire's pre-Fritz problematic fave. Mystery solved.
Marlborough, meeting up with Charles in person: "So, Anne and I really loving your championing of the Protestant cause in Europe! If she weren't a female, she'd come here herself to fangirl you in person! But we're kind of teamed up with a Catholic monarch right now, against a much, MUCH more dangerous Catholic monarch, known as Louis the Expansionist Bastard, so can you try not to disrupt the balance of power in Central Europe until we're done?"
Charles: "Look. I have no interest in your war. But I'm gonna do what I came here to do."
Marlborough, to Anne, afterward: "I think we're safe. I think he's way more interested in Russia after he finishes Saxony. Also, I'm not sure about that whole 'travel light, live off the land' thing he's got going. The lack of supply lines might backfire on him eventually."
The reader who knows how his invasion of Russia went: "AHAHAHA you called it, Marlborough."
Charles, to his advisors, afterward: "A man worthy of respect. But kind of overdressed for a soldier, don't you think?"
So Charles is hanging out in Saxony, where everyone remembers the Swedes from the Thirty Years War and has fled in terror. He takes all the cities without any resistance. He keeps his men from looting. He impresses everyone with his simplicity and piety in contrast to La Saxe Galante. His army makes itself loved by the Saxons, who are sorry to see him go. (I bet they really missed him when Fritz showed up.)
Augustus isn't there. He's off east with the Russians, trying to get support for his war against the Swedes.
So while Augustus is prosecuting a war against Charles in Poland, Charles is in Saxony making the ministers sign a treaty according to which Augustus has to break off his alliance with the Tsar of Russia and stop fighting Charles. The treaty is signed. Augustus learns of it. He manages to keep the Russians from finding out right away, but he's in a super awkward position.
Then, right as the large Russian force is closing on the small Swedish force, Augustus sends the Swedish commander a secret message telling him about the treaty and urging him to retreat without fighting.
Here, Augustus’ reputation finally caught up with him. The King was so well known for duplicity and chicanery that Mardefelt assumed the message was only another of Augustus’ tricks and ignored it.
(This is why I want that bio of Augustus.)
In the ensuing battle, the Swedes were crushed by the Russians, who outnumbered them 2-1. (This was a huge deal that showed that the Russian army had greatly improved under Peter, since previously, 2-1 was no big deal for the Swedes.)
Augustus, embarrassed by this Russian victory, scrambled desperately to adjust himself to his new position between Peter and Charles. He wrote to Charles apologizing for the battle and offering excuses for his inability to prevent its occurrence.
On November 30, Augustus arrived in Saxony and visited Charles...He apologized personally for what had happened...and Charles accepted his explanation, but insisted that Augustus confirm his abdication by writing Stanislaus to congratulate him on his accession to the throne of Poland. Being completely within Charles’ power, Augustus swallowed even this bitter pill. As Charles had written discreetly but serenely in a letter to Stockholm, “For the present, it is I who am Elector of Saxony.”
Then the secret incognito visit to Dresden happens, and then Charles pulls out and heads for the inglorious invasion of Russia.
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-05 05:01 am (UTC)Heeeee! Voltaire! It just amuses me every time he trolls everyone, and it happens SO MUCH.
Marlborough, to Anne, afterward: "I think we're safe. I think he's way more interested in Russia after he finishes Saxony. Also, I'm not sure about that whole 'travel light, live off the land' thing he's got going. The lack of supply lines might backfire on him eventually."
The reader who knows how his invasion of Russia went: "AHAHAHA you called it, Marlborough."
Welp Marlborough!
Here, Augustus’ reputation finally caught up with him. The King was so well known for duplicity and chicanery that Mardefelt assumed the message was only another of Augustus’ tricks and ignored it.
I gotta say I find this hilariously fascinating, and will be excited when someone reads that bio! :)
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-05 11:58 am (UTC)Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-05 11:59 am (UTC)One of Mildred's later, more reliable books: "According to Voltaire, Joseph said..."
Mildred: OH. That explains why it's hilarious and snarky and implausible! That is such a vintage Voltaire dig against a Catholic monarch on behalf of Voltaire's pre-Fritz problematic fave. Mystery solved.
Hehe. Mystery solved indeed. Say, is Voltaire also the source for the Saxons loving Charles? Because while I can see them comparing him positively with August in the religious department (given August had became a Catholic to get the Polish crown and Saxony still was 90% Protestant), but even the opening sequence of the entertaining 80s tv series aside, the whole "Swedes were perfect gentlemen in Saxony, everyone loved Charles and hated August" sounds distinctly not how the whole thing is presented in any German take I've come across in passing. (Including German wiki, whose take on this part of the Great Northern war is "Das Land wurde rigoros ausgebeutet", i.e. "the land got ruthlessly exploited".
(Not that August didn't exploit Saxony too, but as its liege lord, that was par the course.
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-05 02:57 pm (UTC)I don't know the source, but I was actually going to comment today that "the Saxons loved Charles" is another one of those things that my pro-Charles sources say but that is strikingly like *other* Fritzian claims I've encountered, so it's another thing I'm reporting without necessarily believing.
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-05 04:33 am (UTC)Woooow. That's... one way to do it, yeah.
I knew it had been built in a swamp, but not any of the other stuff!