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cahnAnd in this post:
-luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!
-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, andselenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!
-mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War
(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
-
luzula is going to tell us about the Jacobites and the '45!-I'm going to finish reading Nancy Goldstone's book about Maria Theresia and (some of) her children Maria Christina, Maria Carolina, and Marie Antoinette, In the Shadow of the Empress, and
selenak is going to tell us all the things wrong with the last four chapters (spoiler: in the first twenty chapters there have been many, MANY things wrong)!-
mildred_of_midgard is going to tell us about Charles XII of Sweden and the Great Northern War(seriously, how did I get so lucky to have all these people Telling Me Things, this is AWESOME)
-oh, and also there will be Yuletide signups :D
Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-10-31 08:59 pm (UTC)6. Peter III is overthrown and killed after just six months as tsar of Russia, in 1762. Why? The final straw isn't him being (P)RussianPete, it's him being HolsteinPete, i.e., trying to go to war with Denmark to get back territory that Holstein lost in the Great Northern War.
Russia: There are literally one million more important things that we could be doing FOR US with these resources. Down with HolsteinPete!
Oh, huh! That was actually really interesting to me because I'd always got the impression it was because he was so enamoured of Fritz :)
Why should Napoleon have known that invading Russia ends badly? Because Charles XII suffered from Peter the Great's scorched-earth policy and the coldest winter in 500 years in Europe when invading Russia. (Hitler should really, really have known better by the 1940s, or, as Eddie Izzard put it, "I've got a better idea! Oh, no, it's the same idea, it's the same idea.")
Also interesting, because I knew that Hitler should have known from Napoleon, and I've seen jokes about invading Russia, of course, but I didn't realize that those jokes came from more than two invasion tries!
Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-11-01 06:21 am (UTC)I bet most people making the jokes these days don't know, either. Seriously though, the scorched earth tactic Peter used to make it impossible for the Swedes to supply themselves from the land was another thing that was echoed later against Napoleon. (In the 80s Peter tv series, it's also the first thing giving cocky teenager Charles pause and let him exclaim, sounding for the first time sincerely shocked: "But how can he do this to his own people?"
Speaking of 80s tv shows, Mildred's Great Northern War write ups retrospectively make me doubly amused about how this is presented in the first episode of Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria tv show, where the evil Swedes are invading Saxony for no reason right at the start, and later when Charles is making a secret tourist trip to Dresden incognito and Countess Cosel finds out, she's all "let's kill the bastard!" while August nobly says "no can do, it's against the royal bro code!"
Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-11-01 09:35 pm (UTC)I was thinking of this when I got to this episode! Charles did make a secret incognito tourist trip to Dresden. His officers were horrified when they found out. But August did not in fact take him prisoner or harm him in any way. Charles never gave an explanation of why he suddenly had to see Dresden, leaving historians to go, "Compulsive curiosity about his enemy, I guess."
I saw nothing about August bending a highly symbolic iron bar around Charles, so that's either not covered in my sources, or fictionalized based on the fact that August did historically like to show off his strength by bending iron bars (and so did his son Maurice de Saxe, I believe).
the evil Swedes are invading Saxony for no reason right at the start
Hahaha, well. That's one way of putting it. :P
Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-11-02 06:05 am (UTC)Wow, so the royal bo code really must have been a thing. :) No wonder the tv show (or the novelist on whose book it was based) found it irresistable to include that story. Well, since Dresden was and now again is very gorgeous indeed, see pic spam at Rheinsberg, at least Charles did see some nice sights.
(Somehow I doubt that Peter the Great would have let him walk around in Moscow.) (St. Petersburg wasn't yet an option to sight see in.)
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-02 07:42 pm (UTC)It really was! Only up to a point, though; only 4 years earlier, Augustus had had the competition for the Polish throne kidnapped and locked up: the two Sobieski brothers. This was one reason Charles's escapade made everyone nervous.
Genealogical note: the kidnapped princes were two of the sons of John III Sobieski, king of Poland famous for freeing Vienna from the Turks in 1683, and one of these two sons, James Sobieski, was the father of BPC's mother, Maria Clementina Sobieska.
That was in 1704, when Charles XII's supporters in Poland had declared that Augustus was no longer king, and they were about to vote on a successor. Since the Sobieskis were locked up, Stanislas got elected. (At least one of my sources says that Stanislas agreed in writing that he would be king only until James Sobieski was freed. Also that after Poltava, when Charles was in Turkey and Augustus was de facto king again, Stanislas told Charles that it was okay, that he didn't really need to be king of Poland, let it go...and Charles, true to form, was like, "No, dammit! I made you king, and this war does not end until you are king! That Augustus is a no-good, treaty-breaking, invading-without-declaration-of-war, rascal! Though I admit he's great to hang out with in person."
Everyone else, tired of the war: *sigh*)
By 1708, when Charles made his incognito visit, Augustus had been defeated and had signed his abdication and recognition of Stanislas, and Saxony had been occupied by the Swedes.
Well, since Dresden was and now again is very gorgeous indeed, see pic spam at Rheinsberg, at least Charles did see some nice sights.
Indeed! To quote from Massie:
Charles, accompanied by only seven Swedish officers, rode incognito into Dresden to spend an afternoon with his former enemy, the Elector Augustus. Charles’ visit was so sudden that he found the Elector still in his dressing gown. The two monarchs embraced, Augustus put on a coat, and together they went for an afternoon ride along the Elbe. It was a pleasant meeting between the two first cousins and Charles bore no personal ill-will against the man who had attacked him six years before and whose dethroning he had pursued so relentlessly for so many years across the plains of Poland. Now that Augustus was punished, Charles’ attitude toward him was sunny. At the end of their ride, Charles inspected the famous Green Vault collection that had so fascinated Peter nine years before, and visited his aunt, Augustus’ mother, the Dowager Electress of Saxony. It was the last time the King would see either his aunt or his cousin.* Despite these pleasantries, the Swedes around Charles worried about the King’s reckless decision to ride into the capital of a former enemy accompanied by only seven men. Charles later put their fears aside, smiling and saying, “There was no danger. The army was on the march.”
(Somehow I doubt that Peter the Great would have let him walk around in Moscow.)
I don't know. Given how Peter went out of his way to treat Charles with exaggerated respect, including any prisoners of war connected to him, and to lament that he never got to meet Charles so he could demonstrate his faithful adherence to the royal bro code...he might have.
Irresistible AU: Fritz on an "incognito" sightseeing trip to Vienna. MT's reaction. Discuss. :P
(St. Petersburg wasn't yet an option to sight see in.)
For
The city was still built largely of wood, and it caught on fire regularly from the first days of its building, through the two fires that nearly killed Suhm, up through Catherine the Great's day at least, and probably beyond. (Not helped by the lack of adequate fire departments in the 18th century.)
Surprise meetings
Date: 2021-11-03 07:08 am (UTC)Irresistible AU: Fritz on an "incognito" sightseeing trip to Vienna. MT's reaction. Discuss. :P
Oh lord. At which point of their lives? Because I think the reaction might vary depending on when this takes place in their lives. (What she actually does, I mean. The emotional reaction would be pretty much identical throughout, unless he visits before her father's death.)
Silesia 1 "I don't care what you say, Franzl and advisors, the bastard gets arrested. I'm not a bro."
Between wars: "So the Margrave of Brandenburg is curious to see Vienna? Fine. Any beggars throwing dung at him shall be rewarded with a life time pension. Otherwise we ignore him. Pretend he doesn't exist."
(FS: But Mitz, maybe if you two meet...
MT: No.
FS: Didn't you want to present that all female riding in the world's most famous riding school? Maybe you should do that while he's there, then you can be sure no one will pay him any attention.
MT: You're not planning to secretly give him the tip to be there, do you?
FS: Of course not.)
Silesia 2: Tell the Margrave of Brandenburg, politely, we do not welcome spies. He may attend my husband's coronation in Frankfurt and visit that city instead, though.
Peacetime both between Silesia 2 and the 7 Years War, and after, if she learns of his intention soon enough: "Well, if the King must inflict his presence on us, he should bring my cousin his wife along. I shall sent an escort bringing her here, so they can be together during every moment of his visit to Vienna. What? I believe in the encouragement of marital harmony!"
If it's truly a surprise and she can't do that: "No, Joseph, I'm not going to let you meet him alone. I'm going for a version of Selena's No.4 fictional meeting between us, since I know otherwise you'll meet him behind my back anyway. Also, the beggars of Vienna are still offered a pension in the event of a certain scenario."
Re: Surprise meetings
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From:Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-04 10:05 pm (UTC)As noted, Charles found it impossible to deliver a final defeat to Augustus as long as Augustus could draw on his power center of Saxony. Charles really really wanted to invade Saxony. But the British and Dutch wouldn't let him.
Now why are the British and Dutch (hence forth the Maritime Powers, as they're usually called in my reading) such an obstacle?
Well, the War of the Spanish Succession is going on. The Maritime Powers are allied with the current Holy Roman Emperor, Joseph I (MT's dad's older brother). He is trying to put MT's dad, future Charles VI, on the throne of Spain. If Charles attacks Saxony, the Austrians will be forced to defend it. Any resources they spend defending Saxony are resources they can't spend fighting Louis XIV. The Maritime Powers really, really want Louis XIV's butt kicked.
Why doesn't Charles decide he can take on the Austrians and the Maritime Powers on top of everyone else? Aside from the fact that he's not *that* much of an idiot, he needs the Maritime Powers for one specific thing.
What one specific thing? Our old friend Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp.
Remember that back at the beginning of the war, Denmark, one of the first three allies to gang up on Sweden and decide to partition its empire, made the first move by occupying Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. And remember that Charles knocked Denmark out of the war in a few weeks. Part of this was his coolness, but a big part was that the Maritime Powers were the guarantors of the treaty that Denmark had violated. So they showed up with a navy to help Charles out, and said that if Denmark tried that again, they'd find themselves facing the British and Dutch navies again. This is that "Dutch Republic (1700), England (1700), Scotland (1700), Ireland (1700)" in the chart of "who's who" I gave at the top of the thread. William III and everywhere he was leader of through personal union intervened just long enough to help keep the peace in Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp, then went back to planning their own war.
So now it's 1701-1706, and if Charles invades Saxony, Leopold has to divert troops from the war in which he's allied to the Maritime Powers against Louis, the Maritime Powers get mad, Denmark invades Schleswig-Holstein again, and Charles is up one enemy and down one ally in this war (plus the new enemies of Austria, and Maritime Powers). This is why I said you have to know the War of the Spanish Succession if you want to understand the Great Northern War. There will be more overlap later.
As noted, it's not until 1706, after Marlborough and Eugene have won some striking victories, that everyone's okay with Charles attacking Saxony. In fact, Louis was like, "You should come join me! Fight Marlborough and Eugene! We can divide up Germany together!"
Charles: "I have my priorities, sir. And I am staying neutral in your war. Maritime Powers, I will refrain from invading Saxony if you can get Augustus to abdicate."
Maritime Powers: *try*
Maritime Powers: *fail*
So Charles marches through Silesia, where he is hailed as a liberator by the Protestants. He tells Emperor Joseph that he'd better stop oppressing the Protestants and had better guarantee their religious liberties. Joseph does so.
In the words of Massie,
By a threat to march against Vienna, Charles did win for the Silesians the right to reopen their Lutheran churches; indeed, the Emperor Joseph said that he was lucky that the King of Sweden had not demanded that he become a Lutheran himself.
Mildred: That sounds as implausible as it is hilarious. Even leaving religious commitment aside, I would hope the Holy Roman Emperor would have more pride than that! Primary sources or it didn't happen.
One of Mildred's later, more reliable books: "According to Voltaire, Joseph said..."
Mildred: OH. That explains why it's hilarious and snarky and implausible! That is such a vintage Voltaire dig against a Catholic monarch on behalf of Voltaire's pre-Fritz problematic fave. Mystery solved.
Marlborough, meeting up with Charles in person: "So, Anne and I really loving your championing of the Protestant cause in Europe! If she weren't a female, she'd come here herself to fangirl you in person! But we're kind of teamed up with a Catholic monarch right now, against a much, MUCH more dangerous Catholic monarch, known as Louis the Expansionist Bastard, so can you try not to disrupt the balance of power in Central Europe until we're done?"
Charles: "Look. I have no interest in your war. But I'm gonna do what I came here to do."
Marlborough, to Anne, afterward: "I think we're safe. I think he's way more interested in Russia after he finishes Saxony. Also, I'm not sure about that whole 'travel light, live off the land' thing he's got going. The lack of supply lines might backfire on him eventually."
The reader who knows how his invasion of Russia went: "AHAHAHA you called it, Marlborough."
Charles, to his advisors, afterward: "A man worthy of respect. But kind of overdressed for a soldier, don't you think?"
So Charles is hanging out in Saxony, where everyone remembers the Swedes from the Thirty Years War and has fled in terror. He takes all the cities without any resistance. He keeps his men from looting. He impresses everyone with his simplicity and piety in contrast to La Saxe Galante. His army makes itself loved by the Saxons, who are sorry to see him go. (I bet they really missed him when Fritz showed up.)
Augustus isn't there. He's off east with the Russians, trying to get support for his war against the Swedes.
So while Augustus is prosecuting a war against Charles in Poland, Charles is in Saxony making the ministers sign a treaty according to which Augustus has to break off his alliance with the Tsar of Russia and stop fighting Charles. The treaty is signed. Augustus learns of it. He manages to keep the Russians from finding out right away, but he's in a super awkward position.
Then, right as the large Russian force is closing on the small Swedish force, Augustus sends the Swedish commander a secret message telling him about the treaty and urging him to retreat without fighting.
Here, Augustus’ reputation finally caught up with him. The King was so well known for duplicity and chicanery that Mardefelt assumed the message was only another of Augustus’ tricks and ignored it.
(This is why I want that bio of Augustus.)
In the ensuing battle, the Swedes were crushed by the Russians, who outnumbered them 2-1. (This was a huge deal that showed that the Russian army had greatly improved under Peter, since previously, 2-1 was no big deal for the Swedes.)
Augustus, embarrassed by this Russian victory, scrambled desperately to adjust himself to his new position between Peter and Charles. He wrote to Charles apologizing for the battle and offering excuses for his inability to prevent its occurrence.
On November 30, Augustus arrived in Saxony and visited Charles...He apologized personally for what had happened...and Charles accepted his explanation, but insisted that Augustus confirm his abdication by writing Stanislaus to congratulate him on his accession to the throne of Poland. Being completely within Charles’ power, Augustus swallowed even this bitter pill. As Charles had written discreetly but serenely in a letter to Stockholm, “For the present, it is I who am Elector of Saxony.”
Then the secret incognito visit to Dresden happens, and then Charles pulls out and heads for the inglorious invasion of Russia.
Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
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From:Re: The Great Northern War: Charles in Saxony
Date: 2021-11-05 04:33 am (UTC)Woooow. That's... one way to do it, yeah.
I knew it had been built in a swamp, but not any of the other stuff!
Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-11-05 04:29 am (UTC)Man, thank you for the repetition, I need it ALL!
The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-01 10:38 pm (UTC)That's what I want you to do! In fact, I'm counting on your questions, because I think an organic convo here is going to work much better for all parties than an infodump.
Also, when you get around to reading Massie, bring up the things you encounter and we'll discuss them, and that will help a lot!
[Warning for anyone who reads Massie's Catherine, he thinks Catherine had a cute teenage romance with her uncle in which she made the first move on him.
He also hates on Peter III like he's Shakespeare writing about Richard III. But without the Shakespeare. :P]
I very much admire the way you've tied it to things I already know (or at least things that I have a referent for, even if uh maybe it wasn't something I actually *knew* haha), thank you and well done :D
That was deliberate! I will try to create links as we go, and I know Selena will add more.
Oh, huh! That was actually really interesting to me because I'd always got the impression it was because he was so enamoured of Fritz :)
Fritz was definitely part of it! But it was when Peter started telling the army that they were going to march off to fight Denmark and he was going to go with him, and Fritz was like, "Okay, if I can't talk you out of this STUPID IDEA, please at least get crowned in Moscow first? So that your subjects consider your person too sacred to assassinate?" and Peter was like, "Pfff, everyone's been telling me for years how glad they'll be to finally have a man in charge instead of a woman, no one would ever!" and prepared to march off to war against Denmark, that he got overthrown, a few days after writing that "What are you worried about?" letter to Fritz.
So! This means I should explain about Holstein, so you can understand where HolsteinPete was coming from.
Just so you're prepared, I consider Holstein the single most complicated part of the Great Northern War. :P But I'm glad I finally figured it out, because the confusion has been bugging me ever since I started reading about Peter III.
To begin at the beginning, there's Holstein, and there's Schleswig. Both are smallish (but significant) regions in the vicinity of the Denmark-Germany border. Holstein is the southern part, today in Germany, Schleswig is the northern part, today partly in Germany, partly in Denmark. This map is for 1866, but close enough to give you the general idea for these two regions. (Note, though, that Prussia has gobbled up some nearby territory since our period.)
The Schleswig-Holstein region was divided between two1 brothers in the 16th century. One brother was the King of Denmark, and one was the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. Where is Gottorp, you ask? Gottorp is a castle in the city of Schleswig. Thus Schleswig is a region and a city, Holstein is a region, and Gottorp ("Gottorf") is a castle in one of those regions. "Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp" is thus a shorthand for "Schleswig-Holstein at Gottorp," which is short for "The Schleswig-Holstein Duchy, as opposed to the royal Schleswig-Holstein area ruled by the kings of Denmark, has its ducal seat at Gottorp."
If you can follow that, you will be at least 50% less confused than I was for a very long time.
So here's the next most confusing part.
The two new territories were neither geographically contiguous nor politically independent. The 1650 map looks like this. Don't worry about the details, just notice the number of colors and the lack of contiguity.
Only the first three items of the legend are important enough to translate; for the rest, you just need to admire the pretty colors and take them as a reflection of just how complicated the geopolitical situation was.
- Koniglicher Anteil = Royal part
- Herzoglicher Anteil = Ducal part
- Gemeinsam regierte Anteil = commonly ruled part (this right here tells you they're going to have problems)
Notice how the first three colors are also not contiguous, and include regions both in the north (Schleswig) and the south (Holstein).
And if you want to know what the last item is, it says that Holstein is fighting with its neighbors over the dark purple, so just to add more fat to the fire.
Now, what were the dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp and kings of Denmark were supposed to do with this complicated map? They were supposed to share 2, and get along, and play nicely with each other, and pretend conflicts of interest didn't exist. And, because we're talking generations of power politics, that didn't happen. Mostly the Schleswig-Holstein dukes and Danish kings fought with each other.
Now this is where you have to understand a very important concept of early modern Europe: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Also called "leapfrogging diplomacy," because there is a tendency, not absolute but noticeable, for countries in Europe to be allied with the country on the other side of their neighbor. This is why France and Scotland had what was called the "Auld Alliance" (predating even the early modern period): both hating on England. This is why France and the Ottoman Empire were such old allies: both hating on Austria. And why Fritz kept trying to bring Turkey into the war against Austria.
And, it's why the Dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp are so buddy-buddy with the Swedes: both hating on Denmark. The Schleswig-Holstein dukes married into the Swedish royal family so much that I'm going to have to share some family trees later.
Meanwhile, what you need to know for the Great Nothern War is that Charles XII's brother-in-law was the duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. When Denmark decided to go to war with Sweden, the first thing they did was decide to attack, not Sweden, but Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. Charles XII, who was BFFs (lovers?) with his brother-in-law, and whose political interests were aligned with Holstein-Gottorp, freed it from Denmark and knocked Denmark out of the war. (More details on how he did this to come.)
By the end of the war, Sweden was overextended, though, and Denmark managed to hang onto the Schleswig portion of the Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp duchy in 1720-1721. That made the Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp duchy into just the Holstein-Gottorp duchy.3 Peter III's dad never stopped trying to get Schleswig back. Peter III, who grew up in Holstein, was raised to believe that it was his sacred family duty to restore the lost family property.
So the first thing he did when he had an army, in 1762, was try to get it back. Unfortunately, Russia was like, "We just bled and died to take very important territory (East Prussia) away from Old Fritz, and you're giving it back to him for free, and now you want us to go bleed and die for fucking Schleswig?! Which is of no strategic or economic importance to Russia at all?? You have got to be kidding me. Catherine, you're looking particularly regal today."
And the rest, as they say, is history. (Catherine's first move, learning from her predecessor, was to get crowned at Moscow with every traditional ritual ever. Which was interesting in her case, because a lot of people were like, "Aren't you supposed to be regent for your son?" And she was like, "You should see me in a crown." :P "And now also my person is too sacred to assassinate." Which doesn't stop everyone, of course4, but it definitely helps give you that aura of royal mystique.)
Notes, because it's *that* complicated:
1. Three, but I'm reducing this to the bare minimum that affects Peter III. Seriously, there were multiple divisions and reunifications that are elided here.
2. To make matters worse, the parts in Holstein were in the Holy Roman Empire, so nominally the kings of Denmark and the dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp were subjects of the Holy Roman emperors in the southern region of their territories. In practice, you can ignore this, because the emperors didn't really care enough to bother the dukes and kings about it. Which is good, because the Schleswig-Holstein dukes and Danish kings had enough trouble with each other and with the kings of Sweden.
3. This means it was called "Holstein-Gottorp" after 1721 even though Gottorp was (and still is) in Schleswig, i.e. now under the sole control of the kings of Denmark. Which means Gottorp was no longer in Holstein-Gottorp, which was now called "Holstein-Gottorp" for historical reasons. (Talk about maximal confusion.) So the ducal seat had to be moved to Kiel in Holstein, which the dukes still controlled. This is where Peter III grew up.
4. Selena or I will have to tell you about Pugachev one day.
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-02 05:59 am (UTC)He also hates on Peter III like he's Shakespeare writing about Richard III. But without the Shakespeare. :P]
So like Poniatowiski in his memoirs, then?
Holstein is the southern part, today in Germany, Schleswig is the northern part, today partly in Germany, partly in Denmark.
Just for added joy: today, the federal state in question is called "Schleswig-Holstein". During the last election (September this year), a Danish party based there for the first time since eons made it back into parliament. You might have noticed that Hamburg (and Lübeck) are right at the borders of it in their own colors. Historically, this was because they were both independent (wealthy) Hanseatic cities (and thus directly subjects to the Emperor, not to some noble liege lord). Today, Hamburg is still its own federal state in the Federal Republic of Germany, which is a major annoyance to my AP who thinks it should become part of the federal state Schleswig-Holstein already so we have one less federal state. I haven't yet met a citizen of Hamburg who agrees. (Possibly because Hamburg is rich, and Schleswig-Holstein, not so much.)
The part of Schleswig-Holstein I know myself is the island Sylt, which is a no.1 vacation spot of the republic, and when I was a child we used to go there every year.
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-03 09:04 pm (UTC)Worse.
The Schleswig-Holstein question is one of the things we actually covered in my not-great high school, at least to the extent that we learned that in the 19th century there was a big debate over where to draw the German-Danish border. Details, no, and for once I don't blame the teacher or the educational system.
Lol, Wikipedia gives me this quote, which feels very accurate after my attempts to un-confuse myself enough that I can follow major developments:
The British statesman Lord Palmerston is reported to have said: "Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business – the Prince Consort, who is dead – a German professor, who has gone mad – and I, who have forgotten all about it."
THAT SOUNDS RIGHT.
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-05 05:15 am (UTC)Hee!
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-05 05:13 am (UTC)OMG this is amazing. Someone (alley_skywalker?) has to write the fandom AU of this :D
One brother was the King of Denmark, and one was the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp. Where is Gottorp, you ask? Gottorp is a castle in the city of Schleswig. Thus Schleswig is a region and a city, Holstein is a region, and Gottorp ("Gottorf") is a castle in one of those regions. "Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp" is thus a shorthand for "Schleswig-Holstein at Gottorp," which is short for "The Schleswig-Holstein Duchy, as opposed to the royal Schleswig-Holstein area ruled by the kings of Denmark, has its ducal seat at Gottorp."
WHAT. I mean, okay, thanks for explaining that. But WHAT
Charles XII, who was BFFs (lovers?) with his brother-in-law
You... what?! can't just throw out things like that!
4. Selena or I will have to tell you about Pugachev one day.
Yes please! This sounds like good gossipy sensationalism :)
Re: The Great Northern War: HolsteinPete connections
Date: 2021-11-05 10:33 am (UTC)RIGHT? When I realized I needed to understand Schleswig-Holstein to understand the Great Northern War, I sat down with Wikipedia and some books and looked things up and took notes for like 30 minutes until I had it straight in my head. !!
And again, I SIMPLIFIED IT FOR YOU.
You... what?! can't just throw out things like that!
Right, right, thank you for reminding me! I also need to give you the gossipy sensationalism on "the Gottorp fury", i.e., the brother-in-law. (I will warn you that the "lovers" remark basically consists of historians going, "Well, they did the frat boy thing together, and Charles later didn't have sex with women ever, so...if he was gay, then maybe this guy was a candidate?" rather than any actual direct evidence that they were doing anything other than being rowdy teenagers together. But I'll give you some of the crazy stories of what they're supposed to have gotten up to together. Trello note added.)
And I'm throwing things out on purpose in hopes you guys pick up on them, so I can write posts in response to things you've expressed interest in, like A+ tragic minister, as opposed to having to present everything up front. ;)
Re: The Great Northern War: Holstein Genealogy
Date: 2021-11-01 10:56 pm (UTC)1.
Sorry about the quality: that's Charles XI up there in the top right.
This family tree is why Peter III was:
- Duke of Holstein-Gottorp (son of the previous duke)
- Heir to the Russian throne (grandson of Peter the Great)
- Temporarily heir to the Swedish throne (great-nephew of Charles XII, great-grandson of Charles XI)
- Temporarily king of Finland (great-nephew of Charles XII, great-grandson of Charles XI).
To elaborate, 1742 was an iiinteresting year. I remind you that this is in the middle of the 1741-1743 war in which Sweden tries to get lost territory back from Russia.
James Keith is occupying Finland in the war and calling a diet to decide what to do next. There's talk of making Finland into a buffer state between Sweden and Russia, and Peter's voted king in October 1742.
At the same time, the Swedes are in a succession crisis, because Charles XII's sister has just died without leaving her husband an heir. So Peter, her great-nephew, is voted heir to the throne in October 1742.
Over in Russia, Elizaveta is also having a succession crisis, because she's just taken over the throne a year before, and she's in her 30s, unmarried, childless, and without good marriage prospects, so she names Peter, her nephew, her heir on November 7, 1742.
You can see that all these things were happening simultaneously, and as soon as everyone found out, two of the offers were taken back, and Peter got to keep his inheritance to the biggest and most powerful country, and unfortunately the one he had least personal connection to or interest in.
Going back to Sweden and elaborating a bit more, the vote for Peter played into class and party politics in Sweden, and was related to the ongoing war in Finland. The part relevant to our discussion is that the people who voted for Peter were hoping that his election would make Elizaveta happy and more lenient in her peace. Why would this make her happy?
Because Russia and Holstein had been allies. Peter's dad had lived at Peter the Great's court for a while, trying really hard to get Peter the Great to help get Schleswig back. Peter the Great apparently liked him, and he did make an effort! But critically, he did it after he had won his war, not after handing back the territory gained in the war and switching sides, and he didn't do so at the expense of Russian interests. Which meant he didn't end up expending the resources necessary to recover it for his buddy Peter's dad (Charles Frederick), and Schleswig remained in Denmark's hands. But you can see where future Peter III got the idea that Russia helping Holstein recover Schleswig was totally natural. He was just...really bad at politics.
2.
This family tree is why Catherine the Great is considered an appropriate bride for Peter (this and some intriguing by Fritz, who wants more Germans near the throne in Russia, to counteract Elizaveta and her Prussian-hating foreign minister Bestuschev).
3.
This family tree is how Catherine the Great is related to Ulrike's husband.
I need to end this post for now, but since the discussion has turned this way, I'll try to cover the Swedish succession crises (yes, two of them) briefly, with family trees, hopefully tomorrow. Remind me if I forget, one is relevant to Charles XII and the other to Ulrike!
Re: The Great Northern War: Holstein Genealogy
Date: 2021-11-02 05:48 am (UTC)Peter: *toasts to the health of the royal family* (Among other things, at least the novels etc. have him also toast to Prussia and Fritz for good measure)
Catherine: *does not stand up during said toast*
Peter: *sends messenger to the other end of the table to ask why Catherine didn't join his toast*
Catherine: *sends messenger back with the statement that since the royal family only consists of Peter, their son and herself, she did not think it appropriate to join the toast*
Peter: *shouting across the table* The royal family also includes the Dukes of Holstein! Are you slighting my family?"
Of course, as Mildred's family tree shows, Catherine was a Holstein on the maternal side herself. Which is why she did meet Peter for the first time when they were both children years in Germany years before they reencountered each other in Russia when AnhaltSophie was brought there as a potential bride for inspection by Elizaveta. Not all fictional takes on Catherine include this early encounter, but at least one of the Russian Ekaterina series does, in its opening sequence. (Of course, that onle also lets Fritz be present, which he assuredly was not, but it's a way to give little Peter reason for his hero worship by letting Fritz be nice to him.
(Speaking of people whom Catherine met when she was a child, Heinrich, alas, is not included in any tv or movie take on Catherine the Great I've seen so far. :( )
Re: The Great Northern War: Holstein Genealogy
Date: 2021-11-05 05:28 am (UTC)OMG Peter!
Heh, clearly they should film "You Should See Me in a Crown" :D
Swedish Genealogy and Succession Crises
Date: 2021-11-02 07:56 pm (UTC)The first succession crisis is when Charles XII steadfastly refuses to consider marriage until after the war is over, and is well aware the war might last twenty years, and that he keeps sticking his neck out in battle.
He said something very similar to what Fritz said in the 1730s about his failure to have kids with EC. Fritz said that thrones never lack for heirs, and Charles said Sweden would never lack a king. They were not wrong! But in Charles' case, he had two potential heirs: his younger, still-living sister, and his older sister's son.
Swedish succession law didn't provide a clear winner here. Charles was supposed to name his heir. And he refused to get involved. He treated both his sister and his nephew with affection, and didn't want politics breaking up the family. And he's supposed to have quipped, "I can't make myself obeyed now that I'm alive, what makes you think I'll be obeyed after I'm dead?"
So of course two parties developed as time went on. After he died, his sister and her party won. She became queen in 1718. She abdicated in favor of her husband in 1720. I've seen two reasons given by secondary sources: one is that she loved her husband too much to deny him anything. The other is that when absolute power was taken away and parliamentary government imposed on the monarchs, she wasn't interested in power if it wasn't absolute.
And then they never had kids, and when she died in 1741, that kicked off the second succession crisis. That's the one where Peter III, the son of the losing candidate from the previous succession crisis, the nephew, got elected as heir. Then that decision got reversed with Russian help, as
And then Ulrike and her husband made a play for absolute power, which backfired, and then their son, Gustav III, made Fritz and Heinrich finally agree on something when he actually pulled his self-coup off.
Re: Swedish Genealogy and Succession Crises
Date: 2021-11-02 08:47 pm (UTC)Re: Swedish Genealogy and Succession Crises
Date: 2021-11-02 09:21 pm (UTC)In the 18th century, you wanted to preserve the balance of power, while aggrandizing your own country as much as you could. So alliances were constantly shifting. Your enemy today was your friend tomorrow. It was rarely nearly as personal. Any nobleman could go serve in any army to get experience, and this was the done thing. The only restriction was that it wasn't cool to make them fight against their liege lord. (They could choose to join a different court and fight against their former lord, though; see Eugene.)
This is totally related to why so many people were switching sides at the end of the Great Northern War; preserving the balance of power suddenly went from "Fight against Swedish hegemony in the Baltic" to "Fight against Russian hegemony in the Baltic."
This is also related to why so many combatants were polite and even friendly with their enemies even while the war was going on. There was a good chance they had either been on the same side before or they would be soon. There was also a good chance that they were related. And they were willing to intermarry precisely because there was a good chance they'd either been on the same side, or were trying to get on the same side.
All this was notably *not* the case for the Jacobite rebellions. (They had shared ancestry, but they did not continue intermarrying.) Notice that that wasn't a case of two countries fighting against each other for territory, but a more ideological battle that *couldn't* end in compromise and future friendship: either there's a Hanover on the throne or a Stuart. And the way you treated your own rebellious subjects was very different from the way you treated your neighbor's subjects in war. All these things are connected.
That's also why it's not *that* surprising that Fritz said he was never MT's enemy and that he said he regretted her death. It really wasn't personal for him. (The surprising part is that she managed to overcome his misogyny enough to get a positive remark out of him, not that he said something nice about his enemy.) It *was* personal for her! But that was due to an unusual combination of him being the aggressor, her personality, and some ideological differences.
Even Charles XII, Mister "I do not end wars except by defeating my enemies," did not see his opponents as we would see Hitler or Stalin. They were more like rival CEOs than enemies-to-the-death: they can go golfing together after one of them loses market share to the other.
Actually, that reminds me of something I was reading recently. Biologist Sapolsky gave an interesting description of a case study done on dominance interactions among CEOs: during the negotiation, they pointedly didn't look at each other, communicated only through their minions, and kept their body language as stiff and unengaged as possible. Then once everyone was in the parking lot, the CEOs walked over to their fancy cars, tried out each other's tennis racquets, and started bonding. Sapolsky described this along the lines of (paraphrase) "At this point, their rival minion's face probably wouldn't even have registered in the facial recognition center of the CEO's brain. What was far more important now was to have someone who could commiserate about the hassle of paying alimony to a third ex-wife." In other words, their identity could shift situationally from "I am a member of this company" [country] to "I am a member of this class."
And class affiliation was far more permanent and ideologically significant in the 18th century than national affiliation. Nationalism took off later. (This is why later writers, both German and French, were/are so frustrated with the intensely passionate and lifelong Fritz/Voltaire relationship, when Voltaire should have been at Louis' court (French writers) and Fritz should have been way more German-aligned than he was (German writers)! And one reason that cosmopolitan Algarotti, who helped foreigners like Fritz acquire art treasures from Italy, fell way out of favor in the nineteenth century and is forgotten today. Nationalism.)
Re: Swedish Genealogy and Succession Crises
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From:Re: The Great Northern War: Holstein Genealogy
Date: 2021-11-05 05:23 am (UTC)Did you talk about the succession crises (!) ? I didn't notice it but there has been so much posting :D that I could very well have missed it!
Re: The Great Northern War: Holstein Genealogy
Date: 2021-11-05 10:35 am (UTC)Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-11-01 10:57 pm (UTC)The linguist in me likes how I can tell you learned this word from reading books by British authors. ;)
Re: The Great Northern War: Teaser post
Date: 2021-11-05 05:25 am (UTC)